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Old 24-02-2020, 01:14   #31
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Interesting. Our insurance company is UK-based, underwritten by Lloydís, and is applying a personalised global cover policy to us that is specifically for our current cruising area. That is NZ and the nearby South Pacific Islands. High salinity, UV, ocean passages, and rough conditions. Rigging requirement is less than 10 years old. No mention of material.

Regarding our forestay issue, weíre going to get it replaced next week but will leave the rest of the re-rig to the original plan in April. No need to remove the mast and can be done in a few days to allow for applying new fittings and servicing the furler and foil. We have to stick with 14mm 1x19 wire but will use Hamma compact strand to have more strength. Particular attention will be paid to ensuring that we have proper articulation.

This is not DIY for me given the swaging work and the furler bits, but others more handy than me (and not holding down full time work that pays more than the hourly rates) probably could do it with the help of a few friends. Delos has a set of videos describing a re-rig they did themselves in Thailand (IIRC) a few years ago.
Thanks for the update, no doubt the merchants of doom and gloom will continue with their "advice" but I believe that you have definitely dodged a bullet by being observant and also in home waters. Good luck with the rerig.
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Old 24-02-2020, 02:22   #32
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Replace immediately...
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Old 24-02-2020, 05:04   #33
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Might want to check Hayn fittings.



If you can get wire and the fittings shipped in it is a (relatively) simple job to actually replace the forestay where you are.You could actually do the whole job if so inclined. As I recall the Hayn fittings are about double swage costs but are reusable without needing replacement cones like StaLock.


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Old 24-02-2020, 05:13   #34
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Just saw the detail picture of your upper end fittings. Don't know if it contributed to your other failures but when I re-rigged the rigger put toggles at the mast attachment points. Not sure it it was due to wrong ends on the Hayn fittings or to provide for movement. Seems to me that especially your runners could use maybe them.


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Old 24-02-2020, 06:43   #35
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Fix it asap.
What is the fitting at the top? rolled out or a replaceable Norseman type?
If enough room to install a toggle at the bottom or top of forestay?
Cut it off and see what core looks like. If clean then shorten. If corroded- then consider a replacement. Generally because one runs out of overall length.
The cause is most likely the extra forestay wear from roller furling etc. and side to side loads over time.
The discussion of cutting and shortening can only be finalized by close visual inspection.
Suggesting the entire, particularly top fitting, the wire is bad is incorrect. The same issue can be caused by a bad swage on new wire, an incorrect Norseman sized fitting, sideloads on a tight fork fitting, dissimilar metals.
The immediate focus is paramount- the method is availability.
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Old 24-02-2020, 09:38   #36
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Thank God you found it and replace it. That would be alot of pucker factor just waiting for the whole rig to come down.
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Old 24-02-2020, 12:10   #37
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

For those who have suggested that I cut the wire short, check it (just visually?), and place a manual Stalock or similar type long eye fitting on it, I assume this would be for an emergency repair in the absence of rigging services and/or wire supply and also if the wire is relatively new (less than two years?). But in my case the wire is ten years old so to continue insurance coverage it needs to be replaced.

I will take on these suggestions though and practice adding a Stalock fitting on my old forestay. Well, maybe only the top two metres of the wire as the whole length is rather unwieldy. Thanks.
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Old 24-02-2020, 13:54   #38
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

We have bever been asked time on rig provided survey every five years does not note concern. We die test the lower swages every couple of years due to cold weather/freezing travels.
The forestay has broken strands just like yours and we have simply cut off and replaced- putting a toggle in the bottom to add the length back.
I can not suggest the age of the rigging but would suspect over 30 years. This boat has an excess of 300K miles, twice circumnavigated, spends a good deal of time in the higher latitudes. I would suspect the forestay since shortening is excess of 50K miles, much a combination of racing and cruising. The issue in the wire age is debatable to the quality. More issues come from clevis pins and t ball fittings interacting with the aluminum mast and grinding down to smaller dimensions.
Whatever your sdecisio.w asap because what is there is not good.
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Old 04-03-2020, 21:41   #39
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Decision time for what to replace the existing forestay wire (14mm SS 1x19) and as it turns out our 17 year old ProFurl furler is toast as the 10 or so parts that need replacing are no longer available from ProFurl so the furler is being replaced too.

Wire: easy choice between same 14mm 1x19 or upgrade strength by 20% for same diameter 14mm Dyform (apparently now made by Hamma) 1x19 compact strand wire. Hamma wins albeit more costly it provides significantly more strength.

Fittings: not so easy choice regarding swaged or swageless. Swageless are about 30% more expensive, but in the context of the entire cost almost a rounding error. Leaning towards swageless, Sta-Lok or similar.

Furler: ProFurl C480 or Furlex 404S or Facnor FlatDeck webbing furler. I like the webbing and greater torque of the drum, but not sure about Facnorís spotty reputation for jib furlers. ProFurl has a 10 year warranty and possibly a less robust product (less expensive, slightly) than Furlex, which has a 5 year warranty.

Any experience with these furlers and recommendations?
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Old 04-03-2020, 22:31   #40
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Now, when I found out that we need to replace the furler as well, Iím started to think more out of the box. Rather than replace with (more robust and new) same for same, why not go completely different?

Single handed and small crew offshore racing with big boats and smaller sport boats and dinghies have been using structural furlers for years and years. Of course, with a structural furler youíre either fully furled or fully deployed; there is no reefing. Good for racing when you can choose from among 3 or 4 sails, each on their own furler, but not so much for offshore cruising where you have only one or two. Or is it?

We have a relatively small 35 sqm self-tacking jib. Our reefing guide shows a full jib to 27 knots (AWS), 70% to 32 knots, 50% to 37 knots and 20% to 50 knots. Above 30 knots (which upwind can be as little as 25 knots TWS) the 50% furled jib is not particularly efficient for upwind work, so we tend to reef the main more and hang in with the larger jib at 70% until we must reef below 50%.

So, what if we rig a 60% staysail (21 sqm) inside the jib? Then we sail full jib to 27 knots, furl it completely above that and have the staysail up to 40 knots (it will have a lower centre of effort and more efficient and less draggy shape than the 70-50% furled jib so should handle higher winds safely). Weíll reef the main a bit earlier to allow for the higher sail area at the crossover points and go main alone above 40 knots. Or explore using an over the furl (of the staysail) storm jib if really needing to sail rather than bare poles in a storm.

Each sail can be specifically designed for its wind range, which means the jib will be lighter and smaller on its furler. The staysail will provide us with a much more efficient sail upwind in 25 knots (TWS) and above.

Thoughts? Am I totally crazy thinking along these lines for cruising? The lack of the ability to furl the jib really small for extreme weather is a concern. This option, using our existing jib and not including the staysail system, is 50% more than the traditional forestay and drum furler, so thatís an issue too.

The two main options are ProFurlĎs NEX 6.5 (or 8.0) or Facnorís STK 9T. The NEX use a traditional torque rope, while the STK have a moulded Aramid torque stay and offers a discontinuous line drum as an option. With the STK I think we could unroll just a small amount of sail and have the drum hold it to take care of the running across or downwind in a storm scenario. Maybe, need to check with them.

Colligo also have their ELHF system, but that only goes up to 52 foot forestay length. Iíll ask John Franta if they can make it bigger, but of course itís their hardware components (upper and lower swivels) that determine the working loads.

Itís further complicated on our boat due to not having a structural beam running fore and aft, so the staysail tack fitting will either be scrunched right up against the jibís tack fitting on the front beam, or floating and in the way of the anchor and possibly overloading the bow pole whiskerstay fittings. Also, due to the 2:1 self tacking jib sheet, thereís not a super easy way to get the jib sheets out of the way of the staysail, nor to sheet the staysail. And of course short tacking with the full jib will be impossible without removing the staysail and tacking it somewhere else. All solvable, but not necessarily easily or without spending way too much money.
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Old 04-03-2020, 22:35   #41
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Decision time for what to replace the existing forestay wire (14mm SS 1x19) and as it turns out our 17 year old ProFurl furler is toast as the 10 or so parts that need replacing are no longer available from ProFurl so the furler is being replaced too.

Wire: easy choice between same 14mm 1x19 or upgrade strength by 20% for same diameter 14mm Dyform (apparently now made by Hamma) 1x19 compact strand wire. Hamma wins albeit more costly it provides significantly more strength.

Fittings: not so easy choice regarding swaged or swageless. Swageless are about 30% more expensive, but in the context of the entire cost almost a rounding error. Leaning towards swageless, Sta-Lok or similar.

Furler: ProFurl C480 or Furlex 404S or Facnor FlatDeck webbing furler. I like the webbing and greater torque of the drum, but not sure about Facnorís spotty reputation for jib furlers. ProFurl has a 10 year warranty and possibly a less robust product (less expensive, slightly) than Furlex, which has a 5 year warranty.

Any experience with these furlers and recommendations?
apart from race boats, i've always used dyform. only choice at the moment

we have a facnor and now that profurl and facnor are part of the same group, there is a lot of interbreeding going on eg we recently had to replace the top swivel and the new one is branded profurl. looks a LOT better than the old one. i'd go profurl

incidentally, noticed earlier in the thread you mentioned looking at rod. my advice : don't do it on a cruising boat. had it on several race boats, and there the slight improvement in performance is worth it, but you will pay extra on insurance and it really needs to be dismantled and dye tested or x-rayed every year or 2. not cheap

finally : you're lucky you caught this when you did, but this is why standing rigging should be replaced every 10 years. seriously cannot understand people who don't...

cheers,
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Old 04-03-2020, 22:53   #42
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

For swageless fittings look at Searig in New Zealand as the cost of Sta-Lok escalates over 10mm or 3/8 wire size.

For Furlers look at Reefit made by Allmast in Launceston Tasmania.
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Old 04-03-2020, 23:17   #43
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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For swageless fittings look at Searig in New Zealand as the cost of Sta-Lok escalates over 10mm or 3/8 wire size.

For Furlers look at Reefit made by Allmast in Launceston Tasmania.
Concur with both choices... must be right, 'cause I have recently done the same!

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Old 05-03-2020, 01:33   #44
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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For swageless fittings look at Searig in New Zealand as the cost of Sta-Lok escalates over 10mm or 3/8 wire size.

For Furlers look at Reefit made by Allmast in Launceston Tasmania.

Thanks, already contacted Kiwi Yachting for the Searig components - cheaper and more available in the 14mm size that we would need.

Reefit looks great, Iíd never heard of them before. Unfortunately they only go up to 12.7mm wire, so too small. Unless, could we get 12.7mm / 1/2Ē Hamma wire? Iíll check tomorrow. We need at least the strength of 14mm regular 1x19 wire, so the slightly smaller Hamma should be fine.
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Old 05-03-2020, 10:17   #45
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

As you are obviously now interested . I was educated in the Aircraft design business . "never let go of a thought string till the end" Suprisingly The most significant variable in 316 SS failure is TEMPERATURE and it is not a linear factor Has a big kink around 75 to 85 deg F next surpris is the next in importance is the gross numbers of cycles of load regadless (pretty well) of how small the load. SO a a stay that Humms!! quietly in the gentle breeze is using up its life alarmingly! If it is a smart stay and never gets cold enough to wear clothes BAD BERRIES It is hear today but gone tomorrow Average Temp in Hawaii much higher than NZ Hawaii has at LEAST 220 days a year Trade winds 15 to 25 mph Hawai Met figures. Thats why Hawaii Insurance credits wire with such short life The Combination of perfect Sailing Weather 15 to 25 knots NAKED! Mike Pope
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