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Old 27-04-2017, 16:29   #1
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Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

For those of you who are considering your sail options for trade winds sailing, Elvstrom have come up with a new take on the double headsail setup.



New Product: Blue Water Runner - Elvstrøm Sails
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Old 27-04-2017, 17:03   #2
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

It would only make sense if you could partially furl the sail(s).
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Old 27-04-2017, 22:41   #3
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
It would only make sense if you could partially furl the sail(s).
I don't know about that.

If you have a cruiser with just two white sails and a roller headsail, it could be a good next option if you are getting ready for the trades. It will be easier to fly that sail than it would be to put a 2nd genoa on your roller track.
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Old 28-04-2017, 03:04   #4
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Interesting. It's nice to see a very old idea get a makeover. It looks good and should be very easy to use. However I think it would need at least one pole to work well in a seaway of any sort, or it would be inclined to collapse as the boat rolls and yaws.

The benefit of this over a normal poled out headsail (as with any true twin setup with two poles) would be not needing to gybe, or rather not needing to swap any sails or poles over when gybing.

For me I'd rather run a poled out jib to windward and a cruising code zero type sail to leeward sheeted to the end of the main boom (with or without the main set). This would enable the jib to be reefed away progressively in stronger winds and and more efficent light air reaching with a lighter, cheaper code sail. But it would be much more work gybing, having to roll away both sails, swap the pole over and reset.
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Old 28-04-2017, 05:37   #5
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Excellent review here:
One sail instead of three: could the Elvstrøm Sails ‘Blue Water Runner’ revolutionise downwind cruising? - YBW
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Old 28-04-2017, 06:52   #6
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

The 'bluewater' part is a stretch. Look at the video - the boat is sailing in FLAT water.

How much of you your bluewater sailing is done in such conditions ??? Some, but maybe not enough to justify a separate sail.

Such sails will spill a lot of air. They will also require some sort of boom on the opposite side in any roll (=always). You can see it is sheeted via the main boom in the video as otherwise you would see it collapsing.

Also, it seems that you may (?) not be able to sail this rig partly furled.

Also, the mainsail is much better supported and will expose much bigger area to the wind.

A nice sail, I could use one, why not. But next time Elvstrom wants to sell me a sail I will ask for a video made in realistic bluewater conditions, not on a lake.

Cheers,
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Old 28-04-2017, 08:15   #7
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Here is a link to an article about this type of rig that has been used on three different boats owned by Iain Simpson for more than a decade. He calls it his "Simbo Rig" for Simple Bow Rig. The article has a link to a video showing it in action. SAIL MANAGEMENT SYSTEM FOR SAFER DOWNWIND CRUISING — UK Sailmakers
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Old 28-04-2017, 08:43   #8
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

It will need one pole, on the 'windward' side. They are using the boom swung way out, and that is not a good idea in a seaway. It is all the sail you will have out on a downwind passage, so it has to be large enough to move the boat well in lighter air, and partially furlable when the wind increases.

Having just dropped a boom off at the sparmaker for repairs$ after a heavy air gybe last Sunday, it reminded me how much the twin jib system is superior to wing and wing sailing. When that boom gybed across with a full main in 30+ knots, it would have instantly killed anyone in its path. When it came to the end of its travel, the boom bent and the shrapnel started flying--pieces of traveler blocks and boom vang--the sheet also sheared off the upright part of a winch handle. The Santa Cruz 70 in the same race ripped a winch off the cabin top when their mainsheet snagged it during their gybe at the same location.
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Old 28-04-2017, 14:28   #9
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Hi All,
Interesting comments to which I will add a few lines.
I have been building and using these sails since 1980 when I first saw them in French magazine - they were called a Booster.
Best and safest way to fly is with a single windward pole and mainsail up. the leeward side of the twinsail catches the wind from the windward side of the sail and doesn't require a pole to stay filled.
The major bonus is that when used reaching as a two ply single sail (with the clews joined with velco) you have a perfect high clewed reacher that is strong. When you turn downwind you simply pull the clews apart with the windward sheet that has been passed through the spinnaker pole.
The second bonus is that it works perfectly with self steering ie. it never collapses. When the boat rounds up to windward on a wave, as it often does at sea, the sail simply backwinds from the leech first and forces the bow back down until the sail refills normally - amazing to watch.
I have used 1.5oz spinnaker cloth which gives a 3oz reaching sail.
Hope this helps.
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Old 28-04-2017, 15:11   #10
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

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Originally Posted by SojournII View Post

(...)

the twinsail catches the wind from the windward side of the sail and doesn't require a pole to stay filled. (...)
I cannot see this happen. This is a deep reaching sail and the side blanketed by the main WILL collapse or else work at (5% ?) of the potential. In this case, there is no benefit vs a poled out single fore sail and main.

I will also strongly object to the opinion that a doubled 1.5 Oz nylon sails approximates a 3 Oz. upwind sail in dacron. It will have too many limitations: it still cannot be rolled, it will stretch out of shape in any reasonable breeze and it will chafe against itself.

I think, as shown in the video, it is a purely flat water, light wind, downwind sail. And a very inefficient one too.

I can see it better flown on an eased halyard / tack pennant and with twin poles maybe. Amel-style. Except an Amel has the twin pole armature fixed in place, which few other designers ever considered.

Not to say that with other furlers (a hard furler) and materials (e.g. polyester stormlite) the same idea could not get employed more efficiently.

I have seen images from the 20'ies where the same thing was deployed from an unstayed, rotating mast. Ideas come and go, there is very little new under the sun.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 28-04-2017, 15:39   #11
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)



This shows it used with twin poles.
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Old 28-04-2017, 15:49   #12
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

http://reddotpier.com/replacement-for-spi-and-blister/

This is a more realistic article than the very poor YBW one.

The only thing that annoys me about it is the fact that they are trying to claim it as new and revolutionary when the idea is as old as voyaging yachts. I guess it is Elvstroms marketing department getting creative but then they probably know their target market of new, rich and ignorant yachtowners, who will not know of the long history of twin headsails and will likely be impressed with the new concept.

I think used well it would be a handy sail. And could be better value for many than a asymmetric kite.
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Old 28-04-2017, 19:25   #13
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

One potential bigger issue could be getting the windward sail wrapped the wrong way around the forestay if it collapsed or in a broach. This would make it hard or impossible to furl until you could run off dead downwind and gybe it over and clear of the stay.

Then both sheets could be released and the sail (hopefully) rolled away.

This might only be an issue in a big squall, or will land close to leeward, but would be worth considering.
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Old 04-05-2017, 13:19   #14
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Hello Don
The BWR can be safely Reefed from the Cockpit. So snug down at night.
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Old 04-05-2017, 13:38   #15
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Re: Elvstrom Bluewater Runner sail(s)

Hello all.

The BWR can be used partially Reefed, or totally rolled away, all from the safety of the Cockpit. In flat water no poles are required, but you can use the Boom in waves, rather than clutter the deck with extra metal work.
The first day we tried to make the video, it was too windy for the drone and Rib, we hit 9.5 knots - big grins all round!
The BWR is a stand alone sail, saving your New Furling Genoa from wear and tear.
Fabric is Polyester which does not suffer as much from UV as Nylon.
Is it new ? I doubt if anything in our era is totally new, but in 35 years of sail-making, I have never seen a stand alone, Reef-able down wind sail that can also be used as a Reacher, that can be managed with out dancing on the Foredeck.
This sail has already come second in the ARC 2016.
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