Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by andyft

Well this morning one of my life lines parted where it is swagged so I walked over to the rigging shop for a new one and was informed that I should replace all my shrouds because the rigging is 30 years old, stainless wire on a 37 ft. ketch. Does this sound like something I need to do soon? thanks

Yes, tomorrow.

I think S/S has a bit more leeway than Stumble estimates especially in a temperate climate, but we changed ours at 12 years because I had the funds to do so at the time and having the mast fall down with SWMBO on board would be a disaster.

Pete

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Because no one who owns anything but a workboat wants galvanized wire on the boat. Sure it will last, but it also drips rust all over the boat. Weights a ton, and if you want to protect it needs to be served, adding even more weight and windage.

The funny thing about galv is that it is actually much stronger for its weight than stainless wire if it is in the higher grades such as 2070 grade. Stainless is about equavalent to 1500 grade or so. And it also stretches less, about 10% less given Stainless typically has a modulas of elasticity of 180 gpa and structural steels somewhere around 200gpa.

My old galv rigging on Snowpetrel 1 is 13 years old at the moment, some slight surface rust in a few places. This wire has had absolutely no maintenance in this time, and no service, just bare.

It's probably due for replacement, but still very structurally strong. Certainly no rust dropping anywhere or rubbing off on anything. Galv wire costs about $3 per meter vs about $16 for the equavalent stainless and $23 or so for dynice dux in australia. You end up with a far more relaible rig with galv than stainless. Galv gives plenty of warning when its rusting out and is not prone to chlorine corrosion stress cracking and poultice corrosion.

For continual offshore sailing the lifespan would prehaps be nearer 5 years, without any care due to the amount of salt on the rig.

I would love to get a batch of 1x19 2070 grade wire with the special aluminium/zinc coating that gives far better protection than standard zinc. Problem is minimum order is about 5000 meters.

[geoleo]

I wouldn't put dyneema on a cruising boaty. You can be dismasted by someone with a steak knife

[SF Bay Dude]

I've got a question that has probably been asked before, but here it is anyway:

We replace our stainless steel rigs because we can't know or see what's going on within the swage, right? Is the complete length of the wire no good as well, if it is say, 20-30 years old? Has it been cycled and loaded to the point where the complete wire is ready for the recycling bin?

[Pete7]

I think its more of a problem that you can't see what is going on inside or judge what stresses each strand has been subjected to over the years.

My next door neighbour lost his mast in June in a friendly round the island race. One of the lowers went and whilst then did running repair it wasn't enough and he last the mast on the way home.

He is lucky that a second hand mast from another yacht was available at a sensible price and can be cut down. Otherwise its a nightmare.

Someone earlier said Dyneema is good for 5-8 years. If stainless will last 15-20 years before needing replacement then I know which one I will be choosing.

Pete

[DumnMad]

I've been happy to hang on to my now 15year old ss rigging but watching the forestay vibrating in high winds while in the marina made me keen to replace that one 3 years ago before going offshore

[robwilk37]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I wouldn't put dyneema on a cruising boaty. You can be dismasted by someone with a steak knife

and your SS rig can be brought down much easier with a pair of bolt cutters in about 10 seconds. dynema is freakishly difficult to cut for a plastic. this notion that you can just swipe a knife and cut through it betrays an ignorance on the subject. just saying.

i first encountered dynema about 15 years ago hitch hiking from revelstoke back to whistler. im sitting on the side of the hwy watching this logging crew work a clear-cut. theyd bundle 4 or 5 good sized trees together and just drag them by cable over rocks and gravel and stumps and what not, and i remember thinking man, that cable takes some real abuse. well i sat there long enough for the shift to end and was stunned to see the guys just coiling by hand what i thought was steel cable and the size of the coils would have to weigh a couple hundred pounds each! so i mosied over and found the gang boss and he enlightened me. said they had adopted it from commercial fishing years earlier.

point is, this isnt new, delicate, untested or mysterious. i think its an ideal material for a self sufficient cruiser. and you can carry an entire spare rig in a duffel bag if you want.

my .02

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by geoleo

I wouldn't put dyneema on a cruising boaty. You can be dismasted by someone with a steak knife

My SSB has never been the same since I swapped out my backstay antenna for Dyneema!

Sent from mTalk

[robwilk37]

curious if you ran the antenna up the middle of the braid or lashed it outside?

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by robwilk37

curious if you ran the antenna up the middle of the braid or lashed it outside?

No... The dyneema IS the antenna!

Sent from mTalk

[robwilk37]

ok, i know nothing about ham (vegan) so youre going to have to explain that...

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes, tomorrow.

I think S/S has a bit more leeway than Stumble estimates especially in a temperate climate, but we changed ours at 12 years because I had the funds to do so at the time and having the mast fall down with SWMBO on board would be a disaster.

Pete

It certainly can... there is no question that SS rigging can last longer than the 8-10 years the manufacturers recommend. With an aggressive enough inspection cycle you can even do it safely. The problem I see that most sailors push the lifespan far past recommended, while a true the same time putting in place no inspection plan, or a woefully inadequate one.

That doesn't mean you rig I say going to come down, it just means you really have no idea I feel it will. Given that for many used boats a new rig costs more than the boat is worth it is a big gamble that may not be insurable.

[Piratelife]

Lots of good info being passed around, thanks for all the input everyone. I think that it can be agreed that Dyneema is not for everyone, and in situations galv and SS wire can be the better option. However, Dyneema fits my needs well. It may not last as long as stainless, but as was mentioned before, its not just the SS cable that can go bad, its all the fittings, swags, turnbuckles and whatever else that can fail as well. Not only is Dyneema simplier as far as fittings go, but it is also something that, for a cruiser, seems to be the best DIY'er rigging for the average cruising boat. For me, being able store extra line to replace ANY of my rigging (Excluding forestay with the furler) onboard with minimal weight and minimal space required is essential. I prefer to do all my own work because that is how you learn your vessel, and in some areas their might not be a rigger, or cable to buy, or workspace that is needed to work with wire cables. So even if I didn't have the dyneema line I needed on board, shipping to some island or third world country would be much more possible (in an emergency).

The idea is that Dyneema seems to be the most useful material for my needs. I know that it will require tuning more often, as well as possibly replacing sooner than I would replace SS. But the trade-off is worth it to me. Mainly, I just want to know what type of Dyneema is needed to make it happen, which I have gotten a lot of feedback on. Its awesome to see everyones conversions.
My only question, to those who have done the conversion to Dyneema, How much more difficult is it to tune with deadeyes as opposed to turnbuckles? And what is the process for tuning with deadeyes? I'm looking into doing away with turnbuckles but mine are not too bad so likely can be used for a while if I need.

[40 South]

Piratelife
"I know that it will require tuning more often…"

This is not necessarily the case. If you size it correctly and use the correct rope (dynice dux or similar) then once spliced, stretched to reset the splices and lay & then tensioned on the boat then you should only have to adjust the tension the first few time you sail. As storm petrel said it has inverse temperature expansion coefficients but if you sail in relatively similar temperatures then that shouldn't be a problem.



"My only question, to those who have done the conversion to Dyneema, How much more difficult is it to tune with deadeyes as opposed to turnbuckles? And what is the process for tuning with deadeyes? I'm looking into doing away with turnbuckles but mine are not too bad so likely can be used for a while if I need."

I can't help you on the deadeye question but I have converted my Hunter 40 to Dynice Dux and have had some on for 2 years now. It looks the same as when I fitted it. I don't have to regularly tune it. I used turnbuckles. The hardest part of making the rigging was sourcing exact infer regarding the amount of length recovered when resetting the splices and the lay so that the turnbuckles would still have enough thread for adjustment.


Check out the info in this thread I started sometime ago...Synthetic Rigging (sorry can't make it a link)

[Benz]

The way I tune my deadeyes is by tying the tail of the lanyard (it must be rove so the last turn comes up from the lower deadeye) to a tackle, which can be fixed to a halyard. While pulling on the fall of the tackle (which has a camcleat so I can let go), I twang each leg of the lanyard [I]hard[I]in turn, working from the fixed end toward the tail. this works all the slack out. So you heave on the tackle, which can be lead to a winch if desired, and twang the legs, and gradually the whole circus tightens up. Go around the boat several times like this (it's like tightening the lugs on your car tire--you don't want to to it all at once), let it sit for a couple days (or go for a hard sail) and go 'round again. I'll be the first to admit that it's slower than turnbuckles, and more labor intensive, but dang a nice set of deadeyes looks sweet, and is a joy to be around.
Ben
zartmancruising.com