Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GILow

I dunno mate, I’d bet Dockhead is a much better sailor than a bunch of off-the-beach cat sailors. I’m tipping a top five finish.

You'd lose that bet.

When you race from February - November for almost 12 years with usually 15-30 boats on the starting line you learn a couple things. We had 82 boats in our 1997 RTI 100 miler on the line at 0700

I think I've completed near 400 buoy races. You can't help but learn a few things. The last few years I sailed solo on a beach cat with a spinnaker. Think about the downwind mark roundings as a singlehander with spinnaker

I wonder if you or any monohull racer/cruiser could break thru the surf on just one leg of the Worrell 1000.

Should be easy right? Their just beach cat sailors.

But which beach cats and which sailors?

it's all about where you race and who the competition is. Saying you got first etc in your class is nice but who is in you class. Get it?

I was great in Tennessee and Mississippi racing beach cats. One of the very best, but when I got to the Gulf Coast I had to start over again since many of them were top notch Olympian Tornado racers.

It's nice to support your buddy but.......if you're out classed your out classed

The boat. Check the sa/disp

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nacra-20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyFMTh1K7E8

Also check out Australian Champ Glen Ashby on A class cats. 18' boats with minimum weight 165 lbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsjUsQigBc

[GILow]

Like I said, I’m tipping Dockhead.

Unless all the other boats are crewed by Frenchmen, in which case he’s in trouble.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I wouldn't worry too much about your sails etc because if you haven't raced much you will be so far behind that it won't matter except for trying not to be DFL

I don't know, Thomm, Dockhead is a smart guy with a very good boat which is well equipped. I would not rule him out in the type of race he's entering.

[jmh2002]

Regardless of the various speculative points about sailing ability, not having a largish downwind sail onboard, on a 900nm light air downwind passage, will almost certainly ensure DFL place.

And that is what is trying to be avoided.

Everyone has to start somewhere.

[Jim Cate]

It's nice to support your buddy but.......if you're out classed your out classed

Well, ya reckon that there will be a bunch of Olympians, America's Cup and Figaro skippers and crews in this race, Thom? Seems like you are a bit confused about what ocean racing in the not-so-big leagues is like. DH might not be able to sail a hot rod beach cat off the beach like your heroes can, but he's done a lot of sea miles in his boat, is fanatical about trim and sail selection, and is obviously taking t his fairly seriously. I'd give him a pretty good chance myself, and barring some catastrophic event, I would bet a few bucks that he will not be DFL.

Once again I'm willing to believe that the years of beach cat racing that you cite endlessly made you a good beach cat sailor. You have yet to show any of us that you are a good keel boat sailor, let alone ocean racer... to me, this disqualifies you to denigrate DH, his boat or his chances in the race.

Jim

[jmh2002]

I think some people have seen "Ocean Race" in the title and then imagined DH and his boat offshore, bow out of the water, fearlesly gripping the wheel while surfing at 25kn with the new asymmetric...

But this is still cruisers forum, so that really couldn't be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Even if we don't care that much about the results, we sure as hell care about not bobbing around out there and not arriving.

^^^ Instead, from the first post, some more sensible thinking

I'm also guessing that as the wind gets up to 15kn true and more, DH will start considering to drop the asymmetric and go back to white sails.

The point of the adding the asymmetric is only to improve light air performance downwind, not to magically turn into a racing boat.

[GILow]

Frankly, I’ll back a sailor who spends days or weeks at sea on a passage against someone who does tight triangles next to a beach for an hour or two.

But, it’s an easy to mistake to make, I understand. I used to sail cats off a beach (Mosquito), then I got a real boat and started to learn to sail.

[emoji6]

Still learning.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm also guessing that as the wind gets up to 15kn true and more, DH will start considering to drop the asymmetric and go back to white sails.

I'd say not that soon. We won't set our kites (when double handing) in over 20 kts true, but if it is up we'll hold on until 25 true. With a crew we can go a lot farther than that.

He doesn't have any white sails.

OK Dockhead, with all this support you'd better not let us down!

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'd say not that soon. We won't set our kites (when double handing) in over 20 kts true, but if it is up we'll hold on until 25 true. With a crew we can go a lot farther than that.

Yes, but we shouldn't speak about what you (or me) might do, as experienced racing sailors.

AFAIK DH and his crew don't have this type of experience.
(I'm not even sure if they have even flown a spinnaker before, ever?).

So in their case I certainly do not recommend holding on until 25kn true.
They should be extra prudent until they have more confidence with this new sail combination.

And I did say 'considering', because downwind in a building breeze, already considering your options is a good idea. By the time you get around to doing something (remember this will all be new for them), it can already be 20kn+

Originally Posted by wingssail

He doesn't have any white sails.

I meant swapping back to a mainsail and headsail combination, poled out or otherwise, as required.

In 20-25kn true the boat should reach or run sufficiently ok with that combination. That is no longer 'light air'.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I don't know, Thomm, Dockhead is a smart guy with a very good boat which is well equipped. I would not rule him out in the type of race he's entering.

Nothing against Dockhead, it's just that it is usually very hard for a non-racing sailor to compete against good competition.

As you know, it's a totally different mindset.

Most cruisers are not concerned with their steering technique for example. They don't get irritated when they don't keep their boat at the same sailing attitude at all times and screw up and over or under steer during a gust of wind.

If the sheeting is off by an inch or two, you don't do as well.

Most non-racers don't worry about which set of battens they have in their main. Their light air or heavy air battens.

Then there's mast prebend and crew work. Is there going to be an experienced crewman on the mainsheet? Or you going to let the skipper steer thru the gusts or adjust sheeting?

Then there's starting position and course side selection.

And then there's the downwind sailing with spinnaker. On beach cats we are looking back and to the sides for wind gusts because we are going so fast and want the boat's attitude kept them same just like sailing up wind but the movements are reversed

The there are all the sail adjustments between upwind and downwind sailing but with distance racing this doesn't occur as much as during a buoy race.

Point is racing is simply a different beast than day sailing or cruising. I've been "cruising" locally for 9 years now and am still adjusting. There's a lot to it much of which has nothing to do with sailing the boat.

Example, I raced for 15 years and never had an anchor on the boat or any instruments much less a head, and we completed a number of 30-100 mile races throughout the year each year

[GILow]

I think “most” cruisers are much better sailors than you realise.

The fact that you can’t see this tells us much more about your technique than theirs.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GILow

Frankly, I’ll back a sailor who spends days or weeks at sea on a passage against someone who does tight triangles next to a beach for an hour or two.

But, it’s an easy to mistake to make, I understand. I used to sail cats off a beach (Mosquito), then I got a real boat and started to learn to sail.

[emoji6]

Still learning.

You still are not getting the point.

When you are sailing weeks at sea you are not giving your sailing 100% of your attention. Much of the time the boat is on autopilot and not being steered properly

When you race those tight triangle near the beach you can come in 5th or 6th out of 20 boats after an hour or hour and a half race and only be 20-30 seconds behind the leader.

So you are thinking, am I over sheeting or under sheeting. Is my steering off a bit. was I in more current?

Which battens do I have in? Or maybe I should have 100-200 lbs less tension on my rig for prebend

Or you think, it was the start. I was 3rd across bit then got blanketed by a larger faster boat as he came by and maybe all my settings were good as was my steering

These thoughts are not going through the head of a skipper cruising offshore.

That is a totally different thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Yes, but we shouldn't speak about what you (or me) might do, as experienced racing sailors.

AFAIK DH and his crew don't have this type of experience.
(I'm not even sure if they have even flown a spinnaker before, ever?).. .

Ha! I didn't expect this kind of discussion. Well, we have pretty modest expectations -- the main point is fun -- but competition is competition, and we will try. There is no handicap of any kind and all kinds of different boats, from cruisers to one grand prix boat, so anything is possible.


But concerning spinnakers -- I actually learned to sail racing 420's as a teenager, so I have basic racing experience and basic spinnaker experience, although it's been a lot of years ago, and of course the little rag of a spinnaker on a 420 is a different ball game from 200m2 of A2 on this boat. My core crew are not racers, but they are really good sailors -- we've crossed the North Sea together maybe 12 times? In all kinds of weather up to and including F9. They know the boat and know how to get the best out of her. It was with this crew that we did a 218 mile day once, somewhere around latitude 65N, two years ago. We like to sail fast, and we do 200 mile days pretty often; I think we are near the upper edge, performance-wise, of cruising boats having cruiser crews.



But to the core crew I'm adding a couple more guys. One is a professional bow man with vast experience on all kinds of boats including TP52's. He'll be worth his weight in gold; his first job will be to teach everybody else how to handle the spinnaker. For the second, I'm choosing between several, but one candidate is a pro racing skipper/tactician.


We will not be a real racing boat in terms of either the boat or the crew, but the boat's not the slowest and the crew is not totally devoid of relevant experience, so I reckon we have some chance, of being somewhat competitive. Especially if the weather is strong.



Since there's no handicap, a lot depends on the weather. In really light weather we will do poorly or possibly won't even finish (if we haven't finished in a week then I don't care -- we resign and the engine goes on). The heavier the weather, the better our chances. We are the heaviest boat, but we have the longest waterline and largest sail area of the fleet.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GILow

I think “most” cruisers are much better sailors than you realise.

The fact that you can’t see this tells us much more about your technique than theirs.

I've watch the cruisers these past 9 years and when I sailed beach cats.

I had lots of cruiser friends at my dock in Pensacola. Our apartment on the water had it's on dock!

The cruisers themselves knew their sailing was different than what I did. There was one though that had raced a lot and he knew both sides

It takes a long time to learn.

Then you cannot judge your skill by those in your local area. If I had never returned to the coast from Tennessee, I never would have seen the difference nor would I have seen the high tech boats they were using.

I remember one crewmen talking after the 1995 100 mile RTI Race in Ft Walton Beach FL about how the Super Cat 22 he was on would take off just with a small change in the main downhaul! I was watching the start of that race from the beach at 0700 and saw a couple Super Cats surge off the line and immediately take the lead. This with 80-90 boats on the start line

I still had a Hobie 16 at the time and had no downhaul. Nor did I have spreaders and that prebend can of worms to worry about

So when I got a Nacra 6.0 it was a new learning experience. Adding a spinnaker and controlling it during buoy racing was another learning curve .

Then came my singlehanded Nacra I17R which had main only and spinnaker for rated buoy racing. That boat was a lot to handle solo then add to that trying to call all your own tacks especially if you have the lead and didn't have another boat ahead to key on.

Btw, most of the guys at the dock had full keel cruising boats. They knew I wanted a cruising boat one day but at the time something FAST! They would explain to me that when you are 200 miles offshore and the wind is inching up toward gale force any boat is fast enough but some or safer than others.

As you can see my first monohull is a Bristol 27 full keel boat. (cutaway for you purists) It doesn't point worth a crap but when the wind gets up, it can usually deal with it quite well with little wear and tear on the Skipper. But you better get used to the motion especially downwind in big wind because it likes to roll. It rolls and rolls and rolls and if you cannot deal with that you will be blowing chunks in a few hours with many more hours to go if you are far away from home

Plus it has an old CQR on the bow which just about every boat at our dock in the mid 90's had.

We spent hours on that dock over the years (mid to 90's -2001) discussing sailing and boats and drinking beer....etc

Photo is of the rebuilt dock. The old one (and most of the boats) was destroyed by Cat 3/4 Hurricane Ivan in 2004.

The Gulf Coast is about 4-5 miles to the left

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But to the core crew I'm adding a couple more guys. One is a professional bow man with vast experience on all kinds of boats including TP52's. He'll be worth his weight in gold; his first job will be to teach everybody else how to handle the spinnaker. For the second, I'm choosing between several, but one candidate is a pro racing skipper/tactician.

I half expected that you would bring a couple of ringers onboard.

So you will be able to raise the level of spinnaker handling accordingly

But above all, be sure to have lots of fun