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Old 01-06-2015, 20:41   #1
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Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Everyone,
Has anyone heard of a case of a bronze turnbuckle failing? Looking at an allied sea breeze that is on the great lakes. It appears to have original rigging. I am certainly going to replace the cable and get new fittings, but I am wondering if I can re-use the bronze turnbuckles.

Looking for real knowledge here not the "just be safe response"

Everything I read talks about stainless failing due to corrosion. It would seem bronze is quiet better at resisting this.

Bear in mind, these are not in contact with the water, so I wouldn't think that they would "de-zinc" in the presence of an ungrounded circuit.
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Old 01-06-2015, 22:09   #2
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Have bronze turnbuckles on my old islander and I still trust them don't see any corrosion on them at all
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Old 01-06-2015, 22:26   #3
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Nothing wrong with properly sized bronze turnbuckles. Inspect them carefully before you use them. Bronze is softer than stainless so it can wear faster. Examine the pins and clevises for wear.

Bronze doesn't de zinc as it has very little zinc in it. That's why it's the most popular metal for underwater use. Electrolysis can destroy any metal but that shouldn't be a problem with turnbuckles.
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Old 02-06-2015, 01:25   #4
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Testing the condition of bronze turnbuckles - SailNet Community
Posted by Senior Member RichH on 05-04-2001
Testing the condition of bronze turnbuckles
The BEST inspection is done by taking the rigging to one who has the magnetic field (Magnaflux®) analysis equipment. The next best is to remove the rigging and use a specialized dye penetrant, also from Magnaflux. I would NOT do this on the boat .... a degreaser, a dye, and a developer. Macroscopic cracks due to embrittlement failure (cold working) will show as faint red lines on the developer. I think West Marine also sells the dye system. OR... go to a Magnaflux distributor, be super polite, etc. ... and they just might give you a "freebee" small sample/demo kit that would be enough to do a moderate sized sailboat.
Otherwise, simply clean (but dont polish) the terminal ends and inspect carefully by eyeball or with a magnifying glass, etc. ... for visible "teeny" cracks (not deformations due to swaging), especially those running longitudinally (lengthwise) on the fitting or those across the end from where the cable inserts to the outside surface of the connection. Hope this helps.
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Old 02-06-2015, 03:55   #5
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Ken, you sound like an engineer. For some reason i blanked out on NDE.

Your response got me thinking that perhaps they could be annealed and hardened once again.

The problem is I don't know what alloy of bronze would have been used in 1965. Any ideas?

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Old 02-06-2015, 08:44   #6
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Sorry I've worked on computer systems professionally for over 30 years. I'm retired now and still spend way to much time in front of the monitor when I should be working on my boat.

I know a really knowledgeable surveyor. I'll give him a call and see what he thinks. Only problem is I never know when he'll pick up. I talked to him about refitting with bronze over stainless and he felt that so little bronze is being used and made today that you have no idea of it provenance and would need to have every piece tested for the quality of the material.

You might try posting on SparTalk - Powered by vBulletin. If you're not familiar with this message board it is part of the website of Brion Toss a well known rigger based in Port Townsend, WA and author of The Complete Rigger's Apprentice: Tools and Techniques for Modern and Traditional Rigging

I did a cursory search on Brion's website and came up with this:
Bronze Stem Head Fitting Inspection - SparTalk
Old 04-14-2015, 09:00 AM
First, are you certain that it is bronze? Many allegedly bronze fittings are actually brass, including those made of "naval bronze" and "manganese bronze."
Second, while bronze is much more fatigue-resistant than stainless, it will harden in time. If this is an old fitting, used regularly, it might need to be annealed.
Third, bronze is less noble than stainless, so a prime place to check for galvanic action is under fasteners.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Time to finish my morning coffee. :-)

Good luck on your quest.
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Old 02-06-2015, 08:54   #7
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

l can think of two methods to figure out the brass bronze question. We have a hardness tester at work and a friend of mine could probably throw it under a scanning election microscope in scatter mode and get me an exact composition.

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Old 02-06-2015, 08:55   #8
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

I only work that the hardness test may make a stress concentrator where it indents the material.

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Old 02-06-2015, 08:57   #9
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

For that matter, a hardness test on any brass hardware would give you enough data to determine if the material is up to snuff. I don't imagine it would be case hardened. I understand marine bronze to be temp hardened below the annealing temp

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Old 02-06-2015, 18:40   #10
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theller View Post
Everyone,
Has anyone heard of a case of a bronze turnbuckle failing? Looking at an allied sea breeze that is on the great lakes. It appears to have original rigging. I am certainly going to replace the cable and get new fittings, but I am wondering if I can re-use the bronze turnbuckles.

Looking for real knowledge here not the "just be safe response"

Everything I read talks about stainless failing due to corrosion. It would seem bronze is quiet better at resisting this.

Bear in mind, these are not in contact with the water, so I wouldn't think that they would "de-zinc" in the presence of an ungrounded circuit.
Mine are 1984. Good as new. There is usually a large amount of thread engaged so the wear is reduced as is the stress on the threads. I lube mine with nickel or copper Never-Seize.
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Old 02-06-2015, 21:34   #11
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

About 1/2 of our turnbuckles are 5/8" Merriman ones installed 3 owners ago in 1969 timeframe. The rest are either 80's era bronze and a couple new ones. All are sound, threads good (we use Lanolin or Lanicote on the threads) We did have to replace all bronze chainplates with our 2007-2009 rebuild of the boat but not the turnbuckles. Fair winds.
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Old 02-06-2015, 22:03   #12
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

If there are no cracks after cleaning and a careful inspection and the cleaned threads are tight without much wobble, the turnbuckles are probably good to go for another 40 years. Bronze in fresh water is virtually forever.

I ditched the newish SS turnbuckles for used Merman turnbuckles with toggles. Way more confidence in the bronze than SS.
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Old 05-06-2015, 14:23   #13
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Re: Do Old Bronze turnbuckles?

My boat is an 84. I replaced all my standing rigging 4 or 5 years ago but I reused my original bronze turnbuckles. They were just tested on a passage from New England to Bermuda a week ago and passed with flying colors!
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