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01-08-2020, 23:02
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hawaii
Boat: Jeanneau SO DS 49
Posts: 356
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Not many new sailboats have a staysail, as the genoa can be roller reefed well enough for most occasions. Going to weather more headsail is needed than mainsail to balance the rig. A big main and small staysail creates weather helm. If I were expecting a windy passage, I would replace the 135 Genoa with a 100% jib, which holds better shape than a reefed 135. Your tender is not just an accessory to get to shore when at anchor, It is your #1 mode of transportation to explore the coats, allowing you to anchor in a far away bay alone and still get to town for supplies and back, DRY! My priority is the tender, Mine is 12' rib with 20hp, sits transom to mast, right side up, engine on everything inside, on chalks, my wife and I can pick it up and tie it down in 15 minutes with our manual halyard winch.
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02-08-2020, 00:54
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Various, Mooloolaba and Auckland
Boat: Clipper 60 SII
Posts: 159
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail
I say ditch the boom and therefore get rid of that stubby little mast. Years ago Carol Hasse wrote about her views of club footed staysails. While loving the staysail she didn't have the same affection for the boom.
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Absolutely agree with Carol; the club (staysail boom) is the most dangerous thing you can have on a yacht. In extreme conditions it can deny everyone access to the foredeck. That's why it's called a club. Proper cutters (which the Pearson 367 cutter is) have a mast stepped about 10% of the boat length aft of where a sloop's mast would be. If it's a proper cutter you don't need a staysail boom. They became popular when owners tried to turn sloops and ketches into cutter rigs. There is no room for a self tacking (no club) staysail on a sloop or ketch without adding a bowsprit (about 10% the length of the boat, funny that).
Love staysails, hate clubs.
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02-08-2020, 00:58
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#33
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,156
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Going to weather more headsail is needed than mainsail to balance the rig. A big main and small staysail creates weather helm.
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Depends upon the boat. We can go to windward with full main and small Solent jib (similar to a staysail on a masthead rigged slutter) or with main alone without generating significant weather helm. Dockhead in his Moody 54 has reported similar results. IMO weather helm is in general more related to heel angle than sail plan... at least in many designs.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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02-08-2020, 01:57
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
It’s your boat so no need to feel like you need to have your rig set up to satisfy someone else’s preferences. Based on what you said, ditch the little mast before someone trips over it.
I’ve never sailed a boat with a club footed staysail but the self tending aspect seemed attractive when I was thinking about adding a staysail furler. But now that I’ve been sailing with my staysail on a furler for a few seasons I see no need for making it club footed because it’s so easy to tack and the forces are so much less than when tacking my jib that I consider it to be almost self tending. Single handing in strong winds with my jib furled, I found that I can pull in the staysail sheet so fast that there’s no need to even use the winch handle. So I see the addition of a boom or club for my staysail to be unnecessary clutter on the foredeck.
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02-08-2020, 09:24
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#35
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,305
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrigo
I have a 28 footer to which I fitted a roller furled staysail many years ago. It has a windsurfer boom on an additional stay 100mm forward of the furler stay. A single sheet from boom to a ratchet block on the clew is sheeted to a stand up block at the base of the mast (then to the cockpit), via another block hanging below the boom. The sail is heavy duty and the tack is almost at deck level. The boom is at right angles to the stays and, therefore, with the sail below it, acts as a vang to the sail. If I need to go forward while under sail I tighten the staysail and use the boom as a steady, waist height handrail, rather than the lower, thinner lifelines.
I do not have, a lethal foredeck club, two sheets, deck mounted tracks, track cars, barber haulers etc. etc. I do have a well behaved boom, self tending staysail/storm sail and I use it every time I go sailing. But, to get back on subject, Yes, I would remove an unwanted stump on my foredeck.
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Any photos? Not a very common rig and interesting.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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04-08-2020, 11:27
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Southport, NC
Boat: Pearson 367 cutter, 36'
Posts: 657
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSgtPitt
This thread is of particular interest to me and I don’t wish to hijack it but I’m a little confused to the referance of getting rid of the mast.
I have a cutter rigged Cape Dory 36 which has a single mast and a staysail with a small boom on a small traveler. So far, the hanked on staysail has been invaluable. I can drop the mainsail and the foresail and the beefed up staysail provides enough lift to keep me moving forward. Yes, the little boom eats up a lot of deck space, but when the sh$t hits the fan, I am SO happy it’s there.
I had the sail beefed up to work as a stormsail and added reef points....just in case. Why would I want to get rid of the boom other than having more deck space?
Deck space seems a moot point when you’re in a trough that blocks out the horizon. Sailability trumps comfort hands down in my world.....maybe I’m just a greenhorn scaredy baby.
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SSGPitt, the word "mast" is way too generous for the nine-inch-tall attachment point for the staysail boom. I've decide to keep the staysail sheeted to blocks on the cabin-top track, but without the boom. That way I have the staysail, which I really like, and always use unless sailing downwind, but I reclaim the space on the foredeck. I really have not heard a downside to getting rid of the staysail boom while keeping the staysail.
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04-08-2020, 11:43
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#37
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,305
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ_n_Audrey
"
SSGPitt, the word "mast" is way too generous for the nine-inch-tall attachment point for the staysail boom. I've decide to keep the staysail sheeted to blocks on the cabin-top track, but without the boom. That way I have the staysail, which I really like, and always use unless sailing downwind, but I reclaim the space on the foredeck. I really have not heard a downside to getting rid of the staysail boom while keeping the staysail.
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So I don't have one, but I'd assume the pros of the boom include one line sheeting making tacking a bit easier and neater, and the ability to reef the staysail on the boom and since the staysail may be getting furled off or downwind, the kiting for some may not be an issue.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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04-08-2020, 11:49
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Beach, CA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42
Posts: 2,804
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L
So I don't have one, but I'd assume the pros of the boom include one line sheeting making tacking a bit easier and neater, and the ability to reef the staysail on the boom and since the staysail may be getting furled off or downwind, the kiting for some may not be an issue.
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In addition to the advantage of self tacking with single line sheeting the boom also allows more control of sail shape with adjustable outhaul to flatten or ease the sail.
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04-08-2020, 12:24
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,508
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSgtPitt
...Why would I want to get rid of the boom other than having more deck space?...
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SSgtPitt, read post #25 & #32. Some people feel that if you happen to luff up, intentionally or accidentally, that boom is quite dangerous.
You can have all the benefits of the staysail without the boom, all you lose is the self-tacking aspect.
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
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04-08-2020, 12:31
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
You need the ability to adjust the staysail. Open the gap or close the gap. You need to adjust the sheeting angle also. You cant do that "just removing the boom".
No boom: Difficult to get the staysail trimmed. The trim angle is variable. I finally started using a for/aft track and a 4 part Barber Hauler arrangement from the toerail to get the trim correct. The fairlead on the rack gets the sheet angle right, The Barber Hauler gets the port/starboard adjustment right.
Boom: all this is taken care of, BUT you have that stuff on deck.
Solution: Get dingy davits!
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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04-08-2020, 14:49
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,508
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
You need the ability to adjust the staysail. Open the gap or close the gap. You need to adjust the sheeting angle also. You cant do that "just removing the boom".
No boom: Difficult to get the staysail trimmed. The trim angle is variable. I finally started using a for/aft track and a 4 part Barber Hauler arrangement from the toerail to get the trim correct. The fairlead on the rack gets the sheet angle right, The Barber Hauler gets the port/starboard adjustment right.
Boom: all this is taken care of, BUT you have that stuff on deck.
Solution: Get dingy davits!
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Cheechako, two blocks on the cabin top, with sheets, will give you plenty of trim adjustment. If you can add an outboard block then you can shift to the outboard position for reaching (like with your barber hauler). Down wind, roll it up.
People say that the boom rises up when eased off, so the trim on a reach is not taken care of with a boom.
As far as Davits being a solution? For many people that is the solution they choose. However it detracts from the seaworthiness and sailing ability of the boat. This choice would be hard to make for a person who is really concerned with good sailing characteristics. How can one be concerned about perfect trim of the staysail while dragging around the Eifel Tower with a dingy hanging on it on the back?
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
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04-08-2020, 17:05
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,309
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
modifying the rig to suit the way you use the boat is pretty much the essence of sailing. I havent got much time for the sort of knob who wants to bend my ear about his plans to lob a lovely bermuda rig overboard and replace it with a junkrig at great cost while using the boat once a 3month to motor to the other side of the bay for a beer, but if you're actually thinking about the way you use the boat on a day-to-day basis, you are the best placed person to judge what should be modified.
The irony for me is; I'd love a bloody staysail boom rig on my boat but i'm not going to muck about with my rig because it works pretty well and is the rig the boat was designed with - I'm not quite arrogant enough to convince myself i can do a better design than the original bloke...
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05-08-2020, 08:03
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Thhe boat is in Titusville, FL and we're back in CO for a few months resupplying the cruising kitty and raising money for our childrens dental charity www.sailing4smiles.com
Boat: 1982 Cape Dory 36 Hull #78
Posts: 656
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
When are you headed out again? I would REALLY like to know how this works for you.
We’re leaving in March and won’t be back for 3-5 years. Not having that boom mounted or stored on the boat would be freakin’ awesome, but I also don’t want get out there and regret not having it.....we’re still newbies learning as we go ;-)
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05-08-2020, 08:49
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty
I’m not sure why a staysail boom is necessary for a staysail. The only thing I can think of is that with a boom the staysail can have a longer foot. The boom enables the sheeting position and traveller to be forward of the clew and allows for self tacking. If this is the case, then the sail would have to be recut to shorten the foot and possibly raise the clew if the boom is removed and you still want self tacking.
We have a staysail for our cat and it sheets to the same sheet leads and traveller track as the self tacking jib on the main forestay. The staysail is self tacking. It is furling. I cannot see any need for a boom for it.
Back to the original question, if you have removed the boom and modified the sail so it works as you want without the boom, then absolutely get rid of the gooseneck stand (sounds much better than mast for this application) too and enjoy the additional foredeck space.
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The short version of issues and solutions.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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05-08-2020, 12:46
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
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Re: Ditch the Self-Tending Staysail Rig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
The short version of issues and solutions.
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Athwartships track
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