Did I order the wrong size winches?

[odeapt]

I found out about WM BOGO on lewmar winches last week like the last day of the sale and I bought a set of winches. I have a Westsail 28 and it currently has two #20 bronze barlow winches. I pretty much just looked for a size that was closest to these ones and i ordered the #15 Lewmar single speed self tailing winches. Now I've been reading about winch sizes and I think I messed up.

How do you determine the correct winch size?

[Scot McPherson]

bigger winches can carry bigger loads. My main halyard winch is tiny compared to my jib sheet winches, and it's a pain in the arse to get the halyard all the way up, BUT, I am only doing it once in a trip, with maybe a little tuning to take in some of the stretch.


Funny thing is, I am a pretty strong guy and I generally don't need the winch to trim the jib except when the wind is really blowing, so I don't need such huge winches for the jib...


It really up to you what you need. and if the replacement winches are drop in replacements to the winches you already have, then all the better.

[UNCIVILIZED]

It would be important for us to know the size of the sail, it's dimensions, & or, the size of the boat. But barring that, start here with Harken winch sizing guide. And if you get stuck, call either them or www.APSltd.com

[Pete7]

I don't know how to calculate the loads for a winch, but in comparison you have a little bigger sail area to my Moody 31.

I have two speed ST Lewmar 30s for the genoa and have seen 40s ST on a M31 as an optional extra. A magazine review did state the 30s were marginal.

I use a single 16 for the inmast reefing and on the mast for the halyards.

What will it cost you to change to something bigger and is it worth it? Did you manage with the Barlow 20s okay?

Sailing single handed I wouldn't be without the self tailing option.

Pete

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

bigger winches can carry bigger loads. My main halyard winch is tiny compared to my jib sheet winches, and it's a pain in the arse to get the halyard all the way up, BUT, I am only doing it once in a trip, with maybe a little tuning to take in some of the stretch.

.

are you easing the main sheet and vang before hoisting???

[Brewgyver]

I'd have to say that if you got them for sheet duty, you won't be happy with them, but for halyards, likely not a problem. I'd venture a guess that since you bought single speed, they're for halyard duty. I personally wouldn't want single speed winches for sheets.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

I personally wouldn't want single speed winches for sheets.

Please tell me that you're not one of those who grinds the winch 60 deg. in one direction, then 60 deg. the other, & repeats ths until the sail's in. Ugh, those poor winches!

[Kim Gregory]

Odeapt,
if you are a strong guy, you can get by with Lewmar #15 single speeds for your foresail. I did it when I was 30, but not when I am 65 yrs!

I have Barlow 22 two speeds and Lewmar 30 two speeds on my 32 footer, and consider them equal, but minimum capacity for my age and strength.

The Lewmar size guide says you need #30:
http://www.lewmar.com/Winch-Selection-Guide

- Kim

[Hoodsail]

odeapt:
got out my copy of Toss's riggers apprentice per your question. To add to what's been mentioned, for most people, 35 pounds (15.9kg) is a comfortable max sustained load when using a winch. So if the websites already provided give you load #'s you can use the 35 as a guide depending on your age, fitness, sweat equity in moving canvas. To increase leverage from your winches consider increasing handle size. if 10 inch now going to 12 inch increases advantage by 20% albeit you are circumscribing a bigger circle that can be awkward. If you want to do the math Toss does provide how to size. let me know if needed.

[TrentePieds]

Odeapt:

There is no such thing as a “correct” winch. There are winches that are appropriate for the job they have to do in the hands of those who are using them :-)


In a Westsail 28 you don't actually need winches at all. You may want them, but you don't need them. So what you bought will be just fine :-)


The Westsail 28 is hardly a racing machine where you are striving to squeeze the last tenth of a knot outta what you have to work with. And in a Westsail 28 that ain't much ;-). 250SqFt in the main? Something a little more, say 300SqFt in the Genny? And if you are cutter rigged the headsls wouldn't be more than 125 each.


The Westsail 28 is an old design dating back to the time before every Tom, Dick and Harry needed to go sailing, and therefore before racing became a fetish. If you are rigged accordingly, with the mainsl luff having slides that run on a track on the mast, you don't need a halyard winch at all for the main. Run the sail up as high as it will conveniently go, then “sweat” it the rest of the way by snubbing the halyard on its cleat and pulling the standing part horizontally out from the mast. Smartly take up on the cleat the coupla inches you've gained and do this procedure a coupla times again until your luff is as taut as you can make it. If you need more tension on the luff, use a Cunningham haul. No winch required at all. The headsl halyards are even easier to handle, although it's done the same way.


As for sheet winches, why bother? Once you find the trim that suits your boat when you are hard on the wind, mark each sheet (a frapping of whipping twine in a colour that contrasts with the sheet will do nicely) in relation to the cleat on which you will be belaying it. As you complete the hoist and begin to come off the wind, smartly belay the sheet to the cleat where the mark is. Then fall off a little, ease the sheet a little to gain speed, and when you have it, you can come up again letting the headsl luff just a tad while you haul the sheet to the mark. The boat's forereach will keep you going while you do this. Obviously, from there you can select your point of sail and trim accordingly. You trim by your telltales.


When you come about, timing is everything. As your headsl(s) blow(s) across the deck, you smartly haul sheets on the “new” side, belaying on the mark, falling off a little to regain speed and then trimming as described above. If you blow the timing, no matter. Just fall 'er off a tad to gain speed, the come up again to the luff and trim smartly while the boat is forereaching.


No harm in having winches. But you really don't need them in a Westsail 28. I don't need them in TrentePieds which is a much more “modern” boat and is 5K lbs lighter on a two foot longer waterline. In consequence she doesn't have the forereach of a Westsail 28 and in further consequence “winchless sailing” requires strict attention to timing. I have Anderson 12 self-tailers for sheet winches, but I use them really only as snubbing winches. Using the method described above a teenage girl of 100lbs can do the job as handily as a 250lb winch gorilla.


Mind that with self-tailers the finger that takes the line from the drum into the “clam” should be oriented at “seven o'clock” in relation to the position where the winch operator stands. That is because you want the maximum amount of line held in the “clam” of the winch. That means that on the starboard side the finger should point forwards (sort of) while on the port side it should point aft (sort of). Mind also that it's easy enuff for the line to slip, or be knocked, outta the clam. I like to have a cleat backing up the clam :-).


TrentePieds

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by odeapt

I found out about WM BOGO on lewmar winches last week like the last day of the sale and I bought a set of winches. I have a Westsail 28 and it currently has two #20 bronze barlow winches. I pretty much just looked for a size that was closest to these ones and i ordered the #15 Lewmar single speed self tailing winches. Now I've been reading about winch sizes and I think I messed up.

How do you determine the correct winch size?

How big is your biggest foresail, and how strong is weakest crew?

On our Douglas 32, we do some beer can racing just for fun.

We replaced the primaries (Barlow ? 2 spd) with Harken 44 2 spd ST.

With our 155 genoa, we went from my spouse (4'11" and 100 lbs soaking wet) not being able to sheet in past beam reach, to being able to trim up close-hauled.

Happy wife, happy life.

(When your spouse suggests you purchase expensive shiny boat bling, keep her!)

[Cheechako]

My guess is those #16 are too small for your Westsail. Also, Get 2 speed winches.

[Bill O]

The calculated 100% fore SA on the Westsail 28 is an impressive 297 sq ft and a decent amount to handle if it pipes up. Could easily see a 40 series (44?) just for your 100% jib.

If you purchased them at WM, it's very easy to take them back. If you aren't in a hurry, take a look around for a used pair of self tailing winches which is a nice feature if you sail short handed.

The best way to calculate winch size is to find a good winch size calculator which includes power ratios (gearing), sheets lead angles, winch handle length, etc. Believe it or not WM had a good primer for selecting winches.

We recently went through the process to possibly purchase new winches for our boat that we thought we a bit undersized. After we did the power calculations, we found by going from a 10" to a 12" handle with our old winches gave us more power than some of the newer bigger winches provided. We saved a ton of $$ by doing the calculations and not purchasing the new winches.

Cheers,
Bill O.

[Calif.Ted]

Yes, too small for sheet winches.
Where would someone purchase a new 12" winch handle, I don't think I've seen one that wasn't older than me ?

[Bill O]

odeapt,
Forgot to mention previously that your #20 Barlow is geared differently that winch #s today. For example, after we did the power calculations,our Barlow 32 STs were similar to a Lewmar 58 or a Harken 56.

I have a lot of info on older Barient/Barlow winches and couldn't find a 20 to provide you with the gear ratios for that winch. Double check your winch sizes. Just for reference a Barient 22 is approx. the same power as a Lewmar 40.

Calif. Ted,
If you look around you still might be able to find the "vintage" 12" handles. Found some doing an internet search, but in the end had my welder make me a nice heavy duty one.

Bill O.