Dangers of rigging a solent stay like this?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Quebramar

Reefed genoa or jib has bad shape which makes it worse with heavy weather.

Adding a removable stay could be a solution but requires proper attachment and expensive accessories to ensure adequate tension.

How about the simple solution of a storm jib attached over the furled genoa? Might well be adequate for a sailboat of that size.

We have a ring bolt 12" behind the furler and a spare dyneema forestay which the storm job or our spare 90% jib hanks on to. If there is a spare sheave at the mast head, this could be a cost effective option.

Pete

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Boatyarddog, you bring up some good points.

First you mention that no headsail means little progress upwind. True, but in a storm bad enough that you need a storm sail, going upwind might not be the priority (except enough to get off a lee shore, heaven forbid). But some boats have powerful mainsails and can do quite well with the main alone. In the OP's case that is somewhat doubtful. He has a big main but with his very shallow keel any windward work is going to be tough. But only beam reach? I doubt that. Anyhow, mostly you don't need upwind, you need survival.

Yes, the main needs reef points, three I'd recommend.

Hank on sails allow easier sail changes so you can drop the genoa and hank on a small sail (or a storm sail), but few people these days will give up the convenience of roller furling (except I have).

Yes, we have a lot of land masses here, 10 mile spans of Straits, Islands, container ships, ferries.
Quite challenging at times.
Little room relatively to maneuver for long, and current.
Open ocean sailing would be a bit less challenging that way.

I like furlers, but not on my vessel.
Maybe I'll get one when I don't sail in those really active days, as I age.

Wingsail, you say you don't use a furler, what's your spin on that?
Or, the Solent question posed.
I think that boat could have one, but really doesn't need it.

Maybe a different furling sail with a profile that would complement the sailing needs.
If high wind is the issue, there may be other ways.
SV Cloud Duster

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Pete7

We have a ring bolt 12" behind the furler and a spare dyneema forestay which the storm job or our spare 90% jib hanks on to. If there is a spare sheave at the mast head, this could be a cost effective option.

Pete

Best idea, dyneema, strong enough and loose enough to maneuver around.
I know they make slugs you can slide into a furler track, that hanks a sail to the furler.
I believe you'd need a dual track or remove the sail.
And add a halyard, maybe use the spinnaker halyard to hoist?
SV Cloud Duster

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

...Wingsail, you say you don't use a furler, what's your spin on that?...

Oh, I love it when someone asks me for my opinion.

We have a double grooved headfoil. Like the foils on most furlers, except that ours does not rotate (no drum or swivels). We cannot roll up a sail.

To set a sail we run the top of the luff tape into the bottom of the foil and pull the sail up with a halyard. To take it down we release the halyard and pull the sail down to the deck.

To change sails we can hoist a new one in the other groove then drop the first one. Since we race our boat being able to do a headsail change is a big advantage. (We own 5 jibs from 150% to 35% in size).

But while cruising we only use two sails and honestly we use the 85% #4 jib most of the time. Almost always. Our boat sails very well with a full main and that small jib. My wife loves that small jib.

Our boat also sails well with a mainsail only, even with a third reefed mainsail, including to windward.

We have a storm jib but in 35 years of sailing this boat, including a circumnavigation we've never needed it and never used it. In the heaviest winds we simply lose the jib (or heave to).

So, without a rolling furler you have to put a headsail up every time you go sailing and take it down and fold it up after each sailing trip. If we've used the #2 genoa then we would usually have to fold two headsails, plus the mainsail, after we are anchored or tied up to the dock.

We don't mind the work of setting and dowsing sails or folding them. It is a relaxing ritual after sailing for us. Since we have logged about 1550 sailing trips we are used to it by now, and still love it, and since we are in our 70's and can still do it I guess the work of sailing has kept us fit.

It's really quite nice: We sail into a remote anchorage, drop the sails, and set the hook. After the anchor is set and there are sails all over the deck, even possibly a spinnaker, we quietly go about the business of putting them away. We don't have to talk, we know each move. After the sails are folded and bagged we dump them down the hatch into the sail locker. Then we coil the lines and put away the gear. Maybe we'll set the sun awning and get out the deck chairs.

Then it is time for an ice cold beer.

To us, that's sailing.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Oh, I love it when someone asks me for my opinion.

We have a double grooved headfoil. Like the foils on most furlers, except that ours does not rotate (no drum or swivels). We cannot roll up a sail.

To set a sail we run the top of the luff tape into the bottom of the foil and pull the sail up with a halyard. To take it down we release the halyard and pull the sail down to the deck.

To change sails we can hoist a new one in the other groove then drop the first one. Since we race our boat being able to do a headsail change is a big advantage. (We own 5 jibs from 150% to 35% in size).

But while cruising we only use two sails and honestly we use the 85% #4 jib most of the time. Almost always. Our boat sails very well with a full main and that small jib. My wife loves that small jib.

Our boat also sails well with a mainsail only, even with a third reefed mainsail, including to windward.

We have a storm jib but in 35 years of sailing this boat, including a circumnavigation we've never needed it and never used it. In the heaviest winds we simply lose the jib (or heave to).

So, without a rolling furler you have to put a headsail up every time you go sailing and take it down and fold it up after each sailing trip. If we've used the #2 genoa then we would usually have to fold two headsails, plus the mainsail, after we are anchored or tied up to the dock.

We don't mind the work of setting and dowsing sails or folding them. It is a relaxing ritual after sailing for us. Since we have logged about 1550 sailing trips we are used to it by now, and still love it, and since we are in our 70's and can still do it I guess the work of sailing has kept us fit.

It's really quite nice: We sail into a remote anchorage, drop the sails, and set the hook. After the anchor is set and there are sails all over the deck, even possibly a spinnaker, we quietly go about the business of putting them away. We don't have to talk, we know each move. After the sails are folded and bagged we dump them down the hatch into the sail locker. Then we coil the lines and put away the gear. Maybe we'll set the sun awning and get out the deck chairs.

Then it is time for an ice cold beer.

To us, that's sailing.

Lol, I get it!
I've raced with crew on J Boats with those dual headsail tracks.
Pretty nice.
That would work for a small boat too.
Boatyarddog

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

I added something between a baby stay and a cutter stay to my Boat that is removable. I set it when going offshore (normal turnbuckle) together with the running back stays for two purposes: 1 to stabilize the mast fore and aft and guard against single points of rigging failure, 2 to fly a hanked on heavy weather jib or a storm jib. Coastal cruising it’s removed and stowed at the mast to ease tacking. Best of both worlds.

We did this too. I originally added running backs, but found that the high attachment point on the mast made the running backs unnecessary. And they are a PIA, so I removed them.
But we both have large enough boats that is makes sense. We have a lever type "Highfield?" tensioner at the base of the solent stay, but it would be huge on a 28' boat and I've never seen a smaller version of it.

[Na Mara]

I don’t mind the running backstays offshore. I typically, have them loose until the boat is set up on a tack with a preventer on the boom, then I haul in the windward one. With the auto on wind angle mode we then forget about it until the wind changes direction sufficiently that we need to gybe or tack. We release the loaded preventer, center the main, haul in the downwind runner, tack or gybe, release the new downwind runner, ease out the main, load the downwind preventer, set the auto.

The mast had these runners before we added the removable stay. Originally it didn’t have them at all. They have been added by a PO presumably to prevent mast pumping in heavy seas. I just took that one step further by opposing them with a stay offshore. Because this stay is shorter that a cutter stay the 130% Genoa will still tack through the slot ahead of it without too much problem, but to save chafe I typically furl most of the way before tacking or gybing when the stay is set. Not a problem if you are only doing this once or twice a day and if you have electric furling.

I think my attachment on the mast is lower than yours, it’s about 3ft below the second spreaders on a double spreader mast. The spinnaker pole uphaul doubles as the inner stay’s halyard.

[Na Mara]

In very heavy weather with the main reefed right down, the topping lift can be released and both runners can be rigged so that the boom and main swing clear of them so both runners can be left permanently on.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

On our fractional solent rig, I had the main built so with the first reef in, the head of the main is just below the runner attachment point (which is also the point of attachment of the two forestays). This gives superb support to the mast, no interference between main sail and the runners and a nice and tidy sail plan... still with enough sail area to drive the boat well in a moderate breeze.

The foot of the solent stay is over a meter behind the forestay, but tacking the genoa still requires furling the sail... my big bitch with the solent rig. With the close coupled setup the OP describes all genoa evolutions will be very difficult. I would not like that at all.

Jim

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^

On our fractional solent rig, I had the main built so with the first reef in, the head of the main is just below the runner attachment point (which is also the point of attachment of the two forestays). This gives superb support to the mast, no interference between main sail and the runners and a nice and tidy sail plan... still with enough sail area to drive the boat well in a moderate breeze.

The foot of the solent stay is over a meter behind the forestay, but tacking the genoa still requires furling the sail... my big bitch with the solent rig. With the close coupled setup the OP describes all genoa evolutions will be very difficult. I would not like that at all.

Jim

Your Solent stay isn't releasable at the foot?
Some are.
Seems it would keep you from having to furl your sail to tack or Gybe.
SV Cloud Duster

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

Your Solent stay isn't releasable at the foot?
Some are.
Seems it would keep you from having to furl your sail to tack or Gybe.
SV Cloud Duster

Initially (when we bought the boat) it was releasable, and we did so at times. But then the rot set in and we put a furler on the stay, but kept the highfield release lever so that we could, with some difficulty, do the same thing. Didn't often go to the trouble to do so... and then one windy day off Jervis Bay the lever opened on it's own, and we had the furler, stay and sail flailing about wildly. Recovering from that was the single most frightening thing I've ever done on a boat and resulted in trashing the sail, the furler and the stay.

When I renewed the system, I did not replace the highfield... the solent is now permanently fixed to the chain plate. Not ideal, but we manage!

Jim

[Clivevon]

“ the lever opened on it's own, and we had the furler, stay and sail flailing about wildly. Recovering from that was the single most frightening thing I've ever done on a boat”

Thanks for that tale. I have a bow shackle which drops neatly over my detachable forestay highfield lever, just to make sure it could not open accidentally. I thought i was maybe being a bit paranoid, but now i can see i am not, so thanks again.

[jeepers]

Originally Posted by waterman46

We have a lever type "Highfield?" tensioner at the base of the solent stay, but it would be huge on a 28' boat and I've never seen a smaller version of it.

Just for interest & discussion; The "Highfield" tensioner is similar to an "over center" transport chain binder. Albeit a modified "classy binder". A ratchet chain binder could also be used with it's different attributes.

A small "tensioner" could be made from this. The capacity could be increased by different style attachment at the "hooks". This small version could be used as the plug to cast them in bronze.
https://www.amazon.ca/Maasdam-48979M...10600167&psc=1

[jeepers]

Originally Posted by CaptainJackAndo

Sorry if this is a dumb question but why does the head of a roller reefing need 3 inches of clearance?
I'm struggling to understand how the solent stay would get in the way of the roller furling. If it's not touching but only an inch away then what does it matter? What will happen?

After reading all the correspondence on this subject thread. I am still wondering my initial question/impression.
I wonder why you want the stays so close to one another? Is there more to your inquiry?

Are you trying to rig for a "Butterfly" spinnaker (truly wing on wing) type set up?

It is a great idea for short handed or solo sailing. Very manageable (safe) set up with a hanked on jib/genoa on the simple inside stay. Would be easier to hank on the closer stay with the furler on the other-fore stay. All in all an inexpensive spinnaker.
Does anyone know what Class (race) rules would rate/define this as?
Would also be interested to know the efficiency comparative to Symetrical & Asymmetrical spinnakers?

[Na Mara]

The problem with twin forestays is ensuring sufficient tension. People have tried it many times before and few have successfully got it to work. Basically, to get the same tension on two parallel stays you need a mast that can resist twice the tension in a single fore stay setup. This places extra loads all over a rig that wasn’t designed for them. Then with one stay loaded the other flaps around if entirely separate or else the loaded one bows horribly if the stays are 2:1.

Way more hassle than it’s worth is most people’s conclusion.