Climbing rope for traveller control line

[catsketcher]

I like the idea. I also like the idea of learning from other clever people who use ropes in life risking operations from fields other than yachting. I now use abseiling (rapelling) gear to back me up when climbing the mast - I really like the VT Prussik as a great back up device. Just last week I had an issue with a stuck rope in a tight spot and used a prussik loop (a thing I learnt from abseiling/canyoning) to attach it to a tackle. I bought a rapelling alloy block for less than half the price of an equivalent load aluminum snatch block.

Learning a little climbing/abseiling will help you around your boat.

Cheers

Phil

[kayakerChuck]

Initially, we got some funny looks at the club.

If I'm going up something, I'm wearing my climbing harness. My other half is also a former climber- without thinking about it, we use the whole "Belay ON, CLIMBING" routine and other climbing protocols & vocabulary.

It's interesting to watch the communication technique spread to other boats.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

I’m guessing this also resulted in a lot of laughter from the crew once things had settled down!

We were double handed cruising in Colombia and Judy was below. A submarine surfaced and crossed our course. A small patrol boat signalled us to make a left turn, immediately, which I did, unprepared. I was standing in the cockpit.

That's when a loop of the mainsheet caught my right ankle and yanked me out of the cockpit upside down. It was not funny and was unseen by anybody except the stern faced Colombian naval officers.

I think a stretchy line could have turned it into a bungie jumping scene.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We were double handed cruising in Colombia and Judy was below. A submarine surfaced and crossed our course. A small patrol boat signalled us to make a left turn, immediately, which I did, unprepared. I was standing in the cockpit.

That's when a loop of the mainsheet caught my right ankle and yanked me out of the cockpit upside down. It was not funny and was unseen by anybody except the stern faced Colombian naval officers.

I think a stretchy line could have turned it into a bungie jumping scene.

Ouch. As the old saw goes, "mainsheet men hop on one leg."



a. No one was talking about nylon mainsheets.


b. A climbing rope will stretch about 3% under body weight, or about 1/2-inch more than polyester in the scenario you describe (since only a portion of the sheet would feel your weight). And perhaps with less force and a smoother cover it would have cut less. So I'm not understanding the point.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I didn't say it was cleated to leeward (not loo'ard--it's the 21st century). Multihulls have very wide travelers and we don't leave much sheet out (aft raked shrouds). The boom is seldome more than 45 degrees off the centerline. To jibe you pull in all of the sheet and then pull the traveler up to center, often locking it off centered while dealing with other things. After jibing, we ease it down. Multihulls don't round up, so this is all very controlled. The car does not slam over, but there is a good "thump" when a big full batten main with a lot of roach pops across.


So typically there will be at least 6 feet of traveler and rope on both sides during the jibe. Even my little cat would have 30-35 feet of line in the system on each side. These are long travelers. Also, the traveler controls are typically not at the traveler ends; too much running around. They will be at a central point.

None of this has anything to do with the OPs concern about a crash gybe. If you didn't cleat the loo'ard (suck it up--English is still English) traveller side up tight, then the throw of everything coming tight in a crash gybe would somewhat ease the strain, even with a thin-diameter polyester rope instead of a nylon one.
BTW, I believe the OPs boat isn't a catamaran, so we're dealing with different dynamics here: shorter traveller, different rig stresses, it's not one-to-one.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

None of this has anything to do with the OPs concern about a crash gybe. If you didn't cleat the loo'ard (suck it up--English is still English) traveller side up tight, then the throw of everything coming tight in a crash gybe would somewhat ease the strain, even with a thin-diameter polyester rope instead of a nylon one.
BTW, I believe the OPs boat isn't a catamaran, so we're dealing with different dynamics here: shorter traveller, different rig stresses, it's not one-to-one.

The practice of using climbing rope on travelers was first investigated and promoted by first by well-respected mono sailors. I didn't invent the idea and none of us are trying to take credit. We're just discussing something new, like long anchor snubbers, new generation anchors, or saying leeward instead to the archaic version.



It works and the people that try it like it. Yes, it is a break from tradition.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The practice of using climbing rope on travelers was first investigated and promoted by first by well-respected mono sailors. I didn't invent the idea and none of us are trying to take credit. We're just discussing something new, like long anchor snubbers, new generation anchors, or saying leeward instead to the archaic version.



It works and the people that try it like it. Yes, it is a break from tradition.

Ah, I didn't realize we had drifted the thread that far.

The grammar in the quoted post is a delicious irony coming from someone who would fain critisize my use of language. I realize some people are all for dumbing down the language, but you're really getting a head start.

No hard feelings--but re-read your post carefully and see whether you could have resisted that jab.

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by thinwater

No, you have implied something different from how it works in this case.


You seem to have the mistaken idea that a climbing rope is somehow sacrificial and that it absorbs impact like a crumple zone. I have no idea where that is coming from, other than a misinterpretation of UIAA testing practice. Sort of like Grandma reading her labs. Most climbing ropes take thousands of falls before retirement, and then retirement is mostly because of chafe. You do not understand that the UIAA drop test is an intentionally destructive test that very few non-climbing ropes can survive even one drop (if they are strong enough not to break, the impact force is too great for the test). In fact, if you do the research, you will find the fatigue life of climbing rope far exceeds other nylon rope constructions.


What a funny thread. I share what I have been doing for decades, and then am told not only won't it work, but that it didn't actually work. Okay.


It works fine and for a long time. And it does not add ANY complication. You wouldn't know the difference unless somebody told you or you had a rough jibe. It is completely passive. Dyneema is good for halyards. Nylon is good for rodes and travelers. Horses for courses.

Thinwater? More like thin skin.

Not saying you can’t, but paying climbing rope prices to get a line that does absolutely stretch like a crumple zone is silly to me. Here is a link talking about falls and how the rope is designed to absorb the fall and not come back. Read up on it some.

https://mountainknowhow.com/how-many...ing-rope-take/

Good luck with grandma.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Ouch. As the old saw goes, "mainsheet men hop on one leg."



a. No one was talking about nylon mainsheets.


b. A climbing rope will stretch about 3% under body weight, or about 1/2-inch more than polyester in the scenario you describe (since only a portion of the sheet would feel your weight). And perhaps with less force and a smoother cover it would have cut less. So I'm not understanding the point.

There is no point, I just like telling a good story.

[Nooka]

Originally Posted by Benz

None of this has anything to do with the OPs concern about a crash gybe. If you didn't cleat the loo'ard (suck it up--English is still English) traveller side up tight, then the throw of everything coming tight in a crash gybe would somewhat ease the strain, even with a thin-diameter polyester rope instead of a nylon one.
BTW, I believe the OPs boat isn't a catamaran, so we're dealing with different dynamics here: shorter traveller, different rig stresses, it's not one-to-one.

This thread is really interesting (hello btw. - I don’t post very often because the levels of knowledge on here can be a bit intimidating, but I’ll stick my neck out this time).

I had never considered the possibility of using the preventer as a sort of ad hoc boom brake, and don’t really understand the forces enough to try it in anger without checking, but it sounds promising. We are centre cockpit, 40m2 main, main sheet led to boom end on a cockpit width traveler immediately aft of the cockpit coaming. I can manage the traveller by hand but there is a fair bit of friction and my thoughts have been how to reduce this. But am I coming at it the wrong way? Should I perhaps be thinking about selectively introducing a bit more friction in the leeward system, perhaps by looping the line round a winch, or just playing with the angle of the line exit, then leaving the leeward end uncleated so it would act like a rudimentary boom brake. It sounds so simple it must be a stupid idea but perhaps someone can confirm that and I can put it to bed.

[SofaKingFishy]

As a rigger, and live aboard sailor, sure. You can also use any other rope, but why? One can also drive a mail with a wrench I suppose. Climbing rope breaks down faster in the sun & elements, and does stretch more. There is zero advantage, but, yes. Go for it.

[TxCoastSailor]

We have done it as well. Used a dynamic climbing rope, don’t remember the exact product but it was purchased from Amazon. Didn’t put eye splices where the rope attaches to the traveler. Simply pass the rope through the eye and tied a stopper knot. We have had this line on the boat for two years or so without any issues.

[thinwater]

The "crumple zone" understanding of climbing ropes is a common misunderstanding and is completely off base. Sure, they fail when tested in a destructive manner that no yacht double braid could pass. It is a very specific test a characteristic (cut and break resistance at high load and high speed over a sharp edge) marine ropes are not tested for. If you replace the top edge of the test rig with a ball bearing pulley (the way a marine rope would be tested)climbing ropes will last thousands of cycles.


(The drop test load is about 30-40% of breaking strength. look at the -0.45 line for nylon subropes.)




There is a best tool for every job and a best material for every job. Dyneema is good for halyards. Polyester makes a good mainsheet. Nylon makes a good rode or mooring, though Brits prefer polyester. I'm just suggesting that we may be hung up on polyester for an application where something else has advantages. If not climbing rope, quality nylon double braid. But clearly, very low stretch has no real advantage on a traveler line and one obvious disadvantage, judging from the damaged travelers, goose necks, and sails I've seen.


Yes, a controlled jibe is much better. I hate just letting the boom swing across.

[TMarvin]

I would never use climbing rope on a traveller but that's just me. I prefer to tighten down the traveller and loosen the preventer so I can control the gybe rather than let it swing out of control. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most climbing ropes get replaced after a set amount of falls? It may work fine in small boats under 30ft but it would scare me continually on a 45ft catamaran. Do you have a spinnaker? If running long distances down wind you can use that and drop the main, problem solved.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Nooka

This thread is really interesting (hello btw. - I don’t post very often because the levels of knowledge on here can be a bit intimidating, but I’ll stick my neck out this time).

I had never considered the possibility of using the preventer as a sort of ad hoc boom brake, and don’t really understand the forces enough to try it in anger without checking, but it sounds promising. We are centre cockpit, 40m2 main, main sheet led to boom end on a cockpit width traveler immediately aft of the cockpit coaming. I can manage the traveller by hand but there is a fair bit of friction and my thoughts have been how to reduce this. But am I coming at it the wrong way? Should I perhaps be thinking about selectively introducing a bit more friction in the leeward system, perhaps by looping the line round a winch, or just playing with the angle of the line exit, then leaving the leeward end uncleated so it would act like a rudimentary boom brake. It sounds so simple it must be a stupid idea but perhaps someone can confirm that and I can put it to bed.

It's better to get a boom brake to ease the shock of gybing. Nothing wrong with having the traveller take up some shock, but that's not really its purpose--better to have a dedicated gybe easer, I think.