Climbing rope for traveller control line

[wingssail]

We have never intentionally used a stretchy line on our traveller. It is a five to one tackle and we use small diameter polyester double braid.

We have no boom brake. Generally we control the jibe with the mainsheet. If the wind is moderate we "barn door" the mainsail, meaning we pull it in by hand and let it fly. The shock is absorbed by the multipart line in the traveller and the mainsheet. We have a big mainsail and occasionally it has jibed accidentally even in heavier winds. The sound is awesome but the system has held. (once however it caught the mainsheet trimmer in the back and launched him head first onto a winch (ouch) another time it caught me by my ankle and hung me upside down which resulted in a lot of rope burns).

So basically I am saying the putting stretchy line on the traveller to soften the shock of an accidental jibe is nonsense. I just do not believe in taking extra precautions to mitigate rare events which don't need mitigation. It isn't needed.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We have never intentionally used a stretchy line on our traveller. It is a five to one tackle and we use small diameter polyester double braid.

We have no boom brake. Generally we control the jibe with the mainsheet. If the wind is moderate we "barn door" the mainsail, meaning we pull it in by hand and let it fly. The shock is absorbed by the multipart line in the traveller and the mainsheet. We have a big mainsail and occasionally it has jibed accidentally even in heavier winds. The sound is awesome but the system has held. (once however it caught the mainsheet trimmer in the back and launched him head first onto a winch (ouch) another time it caught me by my ankle and hung me upside down which resulted in a lot of rope burns).

So basically I am saying the putting stretchy line on the traveller to soften the shock of an accidental jibe is nonsense. I just do not believe in taking extra precautions to mitigate rare events which don't need mitigation. It isn't needed.

That is a great argument for not having an airbag. I had an accident but I didn't die. Therefore, not having accidents is better.



Traveler has one L, but two is also popular on this thread.


My current boat has a small polyester traveler line. No problems. But the tackle is sort of high friction so it does not slam across fast even in a bad jibe.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So basically I am saying the putting stretchy line on the traveller to soften the shock of an accidental jibe is nonsense.

Well, you can tell Stan Honey that. Google him if you don't know who he is.

You are flatly blanketly dismissing something you have never tried.

[sanibel sailor]

I get the impression that people think that in a multipart tackle, the length of line somehow increases the stretchy characteristics is opposite of the way I believe it actually works. Line is usually sized for handling not load, 5/16" commonly. If there are many parts, each part has less load and stretches less. Pull on 5 rubber bands and it is harder to stretch than one.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

I get the impression that people think that in a multipart tackle, the length of line somehow increases the stretchy characteristics is opposite of the way I believe it actually works. Line is usually sized for handling not load, 5/16" commonly. If there are many parts, each part has less load and stretches less. Pull on 5 rubber bands and it is harder to stretch than one.

Sure, but put the same load on five small rubber bands or one Huge one and see what happens. In a gybe, part of the load will be taken up simply by friction in the system as everything comes tight, so a thinner line with more passes has more stretch than one fat line with the same load rating.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by leecea

Thanks for pointing this out. This will absolutely not be normal practice. Our goal is always to jibe carefully and without impact to the rig. If we have to "chicken jibe" to accomplish that, that's fine too. This would just be a little bit of insurance in case things go wrong.

Similarly we have a preventer, which is another form of insurance. Though with Hunter's swept back spreaders, I've read they can be less reliable.

I have read a lot about boom brakes and was pretty sure I wanted one. Then I saw some posts from users who said they are finicky and can give you a false sense of security. The issue seemed to be that it was challenging to manage the brake line tension so it allowed the jibe but prevented the crash. Especially if wind speed was going up and down. And even with the brake, I think I'd still want to manage the mainsheet and not just rely on the brake but since we always sail as a couple, I'm not sure how we steer, manage the mainsheet, and control the brake line tension. Perhaps this is all wrong and they work well. Not sure.

My impression was that a boom brake is not intended so much as a means of gybing--you do that with the mainsheet and careful steering--but as a load absorber in the event of a crash gybe--just a way to not break things. I know some folk who use a climber's figure 8 rappel device for this, BTW, if you're looking for an affordable experiment.
For what it's worth, I don't think stretch in the system is a bad idea--I have a pretty stretchy mainsheet myself, though I have no travelller, and I like to keep things slack and easy. I still think that Regatta Braid would give you that sweet spot between too stretchy and not enough, while still being splice-able so you can look seamanly.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Well, you can tell Stan Honey that. Google him if you don't know who he is.

You are flatly blanketly dismissing something you have never tried.

Yes, I did. I'm sorry I don't appear to be more open minded on this.

But my response is actually worse than you think. I reject almost everything when I don't see a good reason for it. OK, I am cynical. The argument, "Why not try it? What can it hurt?" does not sway me.

Too often, in my view, we sailors are driven by fear of something bad happening and then we take unneeded, and sometimes unhelpful actions to avoid said "bad" thing, usually by buying or installing something.

We can wind up with a boat cluttered with preventative measures which not only don't work but they get in the way of sailing our boats.

I prefer to keep things simple and direct.

Has Stan Honey recommended this? If so I will think about it a bit more. I know Stan and respect him.

[flee27]

Unrelated but...What a great picture on honeynav.com. Makes that Cal40 looks like a sport boat. Looks fun for sure.

Foster

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

It was always my understanding that climbing rope was made to stretch so as to absorb the shock of a fall, which is exactly the opposite of a desirable feature of rope intended for use as running rigging on a sailboat.

There is a limit to the stretching. Climbing rope absorbs a fall yes. This action is not like a rubber band. The line actually stretches. After a big fall, a climber should replace the line as it won’t have the same absorbing effect.

Nylon however does stretch like a rubber band. It’s why that type of line is perfect for dock lines.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

Sure, but put the same load on five small rubber bands or one Huge one and see what happens. In a gybe, part of the load will be taken up simply by friction in the system as everything comes tight, so a thinner line with more passes has more stretch than one fat line with the same load rating.

Check the math.



Consider that during the crash jibe, with the line cleated, there is no friction because there is no line movement. I've spent many hours watching the line pump in gusts. No movement through the blocks.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by JC Reefer

There is a limit to the stretching. Climbing rope absorbs a fall yes. This action is not like a rubber band. The line actually stretches. After a big fall, a climber should replace the line as it won’t have the same absorbing effect....

No, you have implied something different from how it works in this case.


You seem to have the mistaken idea that a climbing rope is somehow sacrificial and that it absorbs impact like a crumple zone. I have no idea where that is coming from, other than a misinterpretation of UIAA testing practice. Sort of like Grandma reading her labs. Most climbing ropes take thousands of falls before retirement, and then retirement is mostly because of chafe. You do not understand that the UIAA drop test is an intentionally destructive test that very few non-climbing ropes can survive even one drop (if they are strong enough not to break, the impact force is too great for the test). In fact, if you do the research, you will find the fatigue life of climbing rope far exceeds other nylon rope constructions.


What a funny thread. I share what I have been doing for decades, and then am told not only won't it work, but that it didn't actually work. Okay.


It works fine and for a long time. And it does not add ANY complication. You wouldn't know the difference unless somebody told you or you had a rough jibe. It is completely passive. Dyneema is good for halyards. Nylon is good for rodes and travelers. Horses for courses.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Check the math.



Consider that during the crash jibe, with the line cleated, there is no friction because there is no line movement. I've spent many hours watching the line pump in gusts. No movement through the blocks.

Why would you cleat the loo'ard line down tight? If you have stretchy line in it in case of a crash gybe, you need to leave a little slack so the line can stretch when the car slams over. Otherwise you've taken the potential for stretch out of the system anyway.
If you're using the traveller not hard over when going downwind (where acrash gybe really matters), why have a traveller?

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We have a big mainsail and occasionally it has jibed accidentally even in heavier winds (snip) another time it caught me by my ankle and hung me upside down which resulted in a lot of rope burns).

I’m guessing this also resulted in a lot of laughter from the crew once things had settled down!

[kayakerChuck]

Thanks for the idea! And for an entertaining thead. I'll try it.

(Semi-reformed former dirtbag here.)

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

Why would you cleat the loo'ard line down tight? If you have stretchy line in it in case of a crash gybe, you need to leave a little slack so the line can stretch when the car slams over. Otherwise you've taken the potential for stretch out of the system anyway.
If you're using the traveller not hard over when going downwind (where acrash gybe really matters), why have a traveller?

I didn't say it was cleated to leeward (not loo'ard--it's the 21st century). Multihulls have very wide travelers and we don't leave much sheet out (aft raked shrouds). The boom is seldome more than 45 degrees off the centerline. To jibe you pull in all of the sheet and then pull the traveler up to center, often locking it off centered while dealing with other things. After jibing, we ease it down. Multihulls don't round up, so this is all very controlled. The car does not slam over, but there is a good "thump" when a big full batten main with a lot of roach pops across.


So typically there will be at least 6 feet of traveler and rope on both sides during the jibe. Even my little cat would have 30-35 feet of line in the system on each side. These are long travelers. Also, the traveler controls are typically not at the traveler ends; too much running around. They will be at a central point.