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Old 26-07-2023, 17:33   #121
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Plan wire size is 3/8" 1x19 standard stuff.

kind of unbelievable how much bigger the stuff is on the Chris White an Atlantic 55

Looks like 13mm Dyneema should replace 3/8" 1x19 stainless wire.
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Old 26-07-2023, 20:02   #122
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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yeah. Itís just something in tension, so it makes sense to use carbon and epoxy.

I wonder if there is some other way to tension up a synthetic line (or any rope) that might work here. Maybe a rope only turnbuckle? Could be made of any material such as galvanized. However, I probably donít want to have to be replacing it within the next five years. So maybe stainless is the only option. Or bronze. Or if they had something else entirely.

maybe thatís the thing to look into tonight and in the morning.

there will be stretch. if it stretches too much, itís not going to provide the dimensional stability needed and the Crossbeam will break in half and the rig will go down in an aft direction. I'd lose the forestay.

so this has to be right.

The concept in theory is there, but how do I tighten this thing? I have to keep it taught.
Stainless steel wire stretches just like Dyneema. You tension a lashing by using a block to pull the right direction before going to a winch. After tensioning with the winch, you put a seizing around the lashing to hold it while taking it off the winch and tying the lashing line off.

But Iím sure you will be able to find that $900 turnbuckle somewhere cheaper, or find out what your plan says for required diameter. Itíll work outne way or another, it always does
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Old 26-07-2023, 20:43   #123
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Plan wire size is 3/8" 1x19 standard stuff.

kind of unbelievable how much bigger the stuff is on the Chris White an Atlantic 55

Looks like 13mm Dyneema should replace 3/8" 1x19 stainless wire.

I posted pictures of our martingale stay and turnbuckle earlier - this is really dead simple to rig. Our wire is 14mm 1x19, same as what was originally specified for our cap shrouds (we replaced them with 18mm DUX, upsized from 16mm in the Colligo table https://sustainablesailingnet.files....quavalents.pdf).

3/8Ē (10mm) wire seems a bit small, but is what is on your plans so go with it. 13mm DUX/DM20 is correct to replace 10mm wire, but you could size up for more stretch and creep resistance to 14mm. It should be covered or over-braided to protect it from chafe (sails, sheets, mooring lines, etc).

If you decide to use Dyneema then it will need to be DUX (or DM12, or other heat set cable) sized for stretch and probably upsized to remove all possibility of stretch and creep. The best way to tension it will be with a turnbuckle. Take a look at Colligoís site for examples of the kind of hardware youíll need to attach the cable to the beam at one end and the turnbuckle at the other.

We replaced the wire martingale stay with wire when we did our fibre rig changeover 3 years ago. As with the diamond stays, we were advised that absolutely no stretch is important. On reflection, Iím not sure thatís fully correct for a martingale stay, plus it is easy to adjust (unlike the upper diamond stays). Next time, probably 18mm fibre.

Regarding the beam, hereís two anecdotes showing how stiff and strong an aluminium beam is (ours is a Sparcraft mast section 240mm x 145mm):
1) Weíve broken our seagull striker while beam reaching in 25kts AWS and big seas with a full jib and single reefed mainsail and the front beam didnít fold up, nor did we lose the rig. We had to roll up 85% of the jib to keep the beam from pumping and we led a halyard to each bow for backup. Completed another 800 miles of passage like that.
2) Weíve also removed our forestay completely without easing the martingale stay when changing forestays. There was no visible bending of the beam due to the martingale stay tension.
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Old 27-07-2023, 00:39   #124
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Stainless steel wire stretches just like Dyneema. You tension a lashing by using a block to pull the right direction before going to a winch. After tensioning with the winch, you put a seizing around the lashing to hold it while taking it off the winch and tying the lashing line off.

But I’m sure you will be able to find that $900 turnbuckle somewhere cheaper, or find out what your plan says for required diameter. It’ll work outne way or another, it always does
Now is the only time I wish I was in Florida.

The stainless/bronze components exist in used shops there for sure.

Oh well.

I'm comparing the complete new 3/8" setup with new wire/etc to Dyneema.

Difficulty is, I don't have winches. Those go in after the rig. Wondering if some kind of come along or temporary turnbuckle or something might work. Tension up hard with secondary line, make your lashing, then release. Something like that.
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Old 27-07-2023, 00:51   #125
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I posted pictures of our martingale stay and turnbuckle earlier - this is really dead simple to rig. Our wire is 14mm 1x19, same as what was originally specified for our cap shrouds (we replaced them with 18mm DUX, upsized from 16mm in the Colligo table https://sustainablesailingnet.files....quavalents.pdf).

3/8” (10mm) wire seems a bit small, but is what is on your plans so go with it. 13mm DUX/DM20 is correct to replace 10mm wire, but you could size up for more stretch and creep resistance to 14mm. It should be covered or over-braided to protect it from chafe (sails, sheets, mooring lines, etc).

If you decide to use Dyneema then it will need to be DUX (or DM12, or other heat set cable) sized for stretch and probably upsized to remove all possibility of stretch and creep. The best way to tension it will be with a turnbuckle. Take a look at Colligo’s site for examples of the kind of hardware you’ll need to attach the cable to the beam at one end and the turnbuckle at the other.

We replaced the wire martingale stay with wire when we did our fibre rig changeover 3 years ago. As with the diamond stays, we were advised that absolutely no stretch is important. On reflection, I’m not sure that’s fully correct for a martingale stay, plus it is easy to adjust (unlike the upper diamond stays). Next time, probably 18mm fibre.

Regarding the beam, here’s two anecdotes showing how stiff and strong an aluminium beam is (ours is a Sparcraft mast section 240mm x 145mm):
1) We’ve broken our seagull striker while beam reaching in 25kts AWS and big seas with a full jib and single reefed mainsail and the front beam didn’t fold up, nor did we lose the rig. We had to roll up 85% of the jib to keep the beam from pumping and we led a halyard to each bow for backup. Completed another 800 miles of passage like that.
2) We’ve also removed our forestay completely without easing the martingale stay when changing forestays. There was no visible bending of the beam due to the martingale stay tension.


Awesome first hand experience. Thank you!

I think it’s a little bit of extra sizing up on your boat is the same as the Chris White a Atlantic 55 this came off to begin with. There seems to be a big difference from a stretched out 45 which mine is, to a 55 like yours. The beam is quite different. I am 25 feet wide. 50 long, but that has to do with 5ft added length without sizing anything up.

So, 3/8" 1x19 on my boat is from a 45ft boat's rigging specs.

Upsizing some synthetic to help prevent stretch is a great technique I've read about as well.

If I can find a way to get this synthetic on there without a turnbuckle I think I'll go for it.

Otherwise, if I’m using a turnbuckle I feel like I might as well just use the stainless since it’s quicker and more readily available for now. If I can find a way to tension dyneema and just leave it that would be perfect. After all, it is a static situation. A rig off and needs tuning in changing based on conditions and fine-tuning. But the Martingale just needs to hold things in place. Like the carbon strap from Jedis post before

As it is, my cross beam is more robust than needed because it came off a 55.

but, I’m surprised you have not seen movement on yours. My moves like crazy. When I am anchoring in adverse conditions I am thinking it’s going to fold up sometimes. It definitely deflects and bends.

oh yeah. I was definitely thinking of doing the covered dyneena if I go with this. I agree.
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Old 27-07-2023, 05:32   #126
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

3/8Ē ?! That changes everything. You can get the turnbuckle with fork for $250.- new: https://www.riggingandhardware.com/p...gle-34fbj.aspx

You can get Stalok studs 3/4Ē for 3/8, 7/16 and 1/2Ē wire. For 3/8Ē it is $124 here: https://www.riggingandhardware.com/p...136-10-34.aspx

Then on the other side you only need a toggle fork which is 135.- https://www.riggingandhardware.com/p...re-58-pin.aspx

So then youíre done with all new hardware for $500
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Old 27-07-2023, 05:32   #127
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Got a friend who uses a dyneema pelican striker wire on his Seawind 1000, trying to get some info and pics.
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Old 27-07-2023, 05:36   #128
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

No winch? Well yes, if you have a strong point and a block (or one of the 4x4 rings I got recently for under $20) then you can use a come-along etc.

It will be tough to find the large diameter heatset Dyneema on short notice and that requires expensive hardware to connect to those tangs as well. Those are made for these forks, not for Dyneema so you keep adapting which I hate.

I would go for the wire.

BTW, make sure to pressure wash and polish/wax that new wire before putting it up. There is dust and debris in there that will make a mess.
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Old 27-07-2023, 06:11   #129
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Yes. The 3/8” conversion is what makes this a decision. With 14mm Dynaform, it was no decision to change over to synthetic. With 3/8” it’s a maybe due to cost.

I like less weight though too. Definitely a decision to make here.

Hoping to see SMJ’s friend’s setup too
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Old 27-07-2023, 09:56   #130
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I'd be nervous to do synthetic on a striker, not because of stretch, because of creep. They have fairly small tolerance for slack - and to do dyneema you'd have to upsize such that the dyneema wasn't taken higher than.... I'd say 7% of MBL to avoid elongation. Usually we aim for 10% on standing rigging, but the striker is under pretty consistent high load, that's why they tend to be upsized compared to the rest of the standing rigging. If it gets higher than 10% you will experience creep year on year.
I'd stick with 3/8" 1x19 and mechanical fittings, or just get a rigger a pin-pin measurement measured across the cathedral (that's the name of the triangle frame), and they can swage it up for you for way cheaper than the mechanical (sta-lok type) fittings.

Also regarding the epoxy... I've never seen a Norseman with epoxy in it, it's almost always a sealant of some form or other, lifecaulk, silicone, 4200. Epoxy is insane. Good to seal them though, so they don't corrode internally when they get seawater in them.

Chotu, if you want, send me a pic-pin measurement.
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Old 27-07-2023, 10:10   #131
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I'd be nervous to do synthetic on a striker, not because of stretch, because of creep. They have fairly small tolerance for slack - and to do dyneema you'd have to upsize such that the dyneema wasn't taken higher than.... I'd say 7% of MBL to avoid elongation. Usually we aim for 10% on standing rigging, but the striker is under pretty consistent high load, that's why they tend to be upsized compared to the rest of the standing rigging. If it gets higher than 10% you will experience creep year on year.
I'd stick with 3/8" 1x19 and mechanical fittings, or just get a rigger a pin-pin measurement measured across the cathedral (that's the name of the triangle frame), and they can swage it up for you for way cheaper than the mechanical (sta-lok type) fittings.

Also regarding the epoxy... I've never seen a Norseman with epoxy in it, it's almost always a sealant of some form or other, lifecaulk, silicone, 4200. Epoxy is insane. Good to seal them though, so they don't corrode internally when they get seawater in them.

Chotu, if you want, send me a pic-pin measurement.


Why oh why was I not fortunate enough to go to The Yacht Rigger when I was in St Pete?? I was very close by. I could have been sailing this summer.

thank you for your posts.

is it center of pin to center of pin you want?

I'll send the applicable measurements, pin diameter and tang thickness
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Old 27-07-2023, 16:00   #132
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

For simplicity sake I think I am just going with the stainless on the Martingale stay.

It will be quick and I can get the rig up faster
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Old 27-07-2023, 16:30   #133
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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For simplicity sake I think I am just going with the stainless on the Martingale stay.

It will be quick and I can get the rig up faster
Indeed. I did some calculations in 2004 and found that mechanical fittings done DIY earn themselves back during the next rig replacement. And the turnbuckle, forks etc. are all the same.
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Old 27-07-2023, 18:09   #134
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Indeed. I did some calculations in 2004 and found that mechanical fittings done DIY earn themselves back during the next rig replacement. And the turnbuckle, forks etc. are all the same.
True. This is actually my forever boat. Finally. After six of them. This one has everything I need and everything I want. So being able to change my own rigging will be handy in the future. I plan to keep this a very long time.

And honestly I was going to send those measurements off to the yacht Rigger to see about pricing which would probably be less.

But I kind of want to practice on this and get self-sufficient with rigging in general.

So I’m going to spend a little extra and buy those sta-locks and enjoy the process.

God knows all of this is a lot easier than playing with epoxy (or the esters) and Fiberglass lol this is the stuff I have been looking forward to
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Old 27-07-2023, 18:31   #135
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

For anyone reading along here that was struggling a bit with understanding how my standing rigging is on the mast, take a look at this video.

At 5:40 in the video you can clearly see the same type of rig on this gunboat as it tacks. They only have a single diamond. I have a double diamond. But take a look at where shrouds are in relation to the diamond.

This should make it a lot more clear.

Notice a single diamond means a single set of spreaders




Question: Why is the self tacking Solent on a straight track??? Looks like a VERY easy install doing that.
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