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Old 23-09-2023, 06:00   #586
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You know, whacking and insulting this guy has really grown old. If you think you can do better, then record and post it. He did not make any of this up, if you ask riggers, incl. Colligo, they will all agree that for Dyneema rigging, turnbuckles work much better than lashings and they all made the switch back to turnbuckles.
A couple minutes on Google would have showed you that, instead of firstly being ridiculously rude to someone who takes a lot of effort in showing techniques for free and secondly making yourself look silly as it is you, not him, going against all professional consensus.



I use New England Spyderline for that and itís great, but not for this because you want slippery to get it all tight. Samson Lash-it is easily available, affordable and a far superior product for this.
When something is posted publicly, it's open for public comment. No matter how much concensus there is on amateur youtube videos that something is better than another thing, it simply can't supercede the knowledge of professionals who:
1: Do this every day for a living
2: Have copious engineering done, with load testing and destructive analysis
3: Are building on the research done by other professionals who are also engaged in #2

If I seem dismissive of those on YouTube who darken counsel without knowledge, it's because I've spent the money on destructive analysis, the years in shops where cutting-edge rigging is being done and shared among professionals, and have tubs full of expensive prototypes that didn't work, or have been improved.
Colligo steers people toward turnbuckles because they are idiot-proof, and given all the misinformation online about how to do even simple lashings, it's no wonder some amateur sailors can't seem to figure it out.
For what it's worth, I have taken the time to post some instructional slide shows on my website: zartmancruising dot com
They're public, so feel free to make any comments you like. Maybe I'll post a show about how to tighten lanyards soon.
Last of all, there's plenty of right ways to do certain things, and variety has its attractions, but when everyone tries their utmost to set up a rig with lashings and finally concludes that it can't be done, it may only mean that they haven't figured it out yet.
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Old 23-09-2023, 08:21   #587
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Colligo doesnít steer people towards turnbuckles because theyíre idiot proof.
Hereís the quote from their website:

Pretension of your rig is often overlooked and it is critical to the efficient function of your rig. The bigger the boat, the more pretension you will need in your standing rigging. Lashings look really cool but are limited in their ability to create tension. Boats equal to or larger than 30í LOA with a fixed mast should use turnbuckles.
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Old 23-09-2023, 14:39   #588
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Colligo doesnít steer people towards turnbuckles because theyíre idiot proof.
Hereís the quote from their website:

Pretension of your rig is often overlooked and it is critical to the efficient function of your rig. The bigger the boat, the more pretension you will need in your standing rigging. Lashings look really cool but are limited in their ability to create tension. Boats equal to or larger than 30í LOA with a fixed mast should use turnbuckles.
Well, they don't want to SAY that they've found customers too helpless to set up a lanyard properly, lest they come back later and say "They said I could but I can't--this stuff doesn't work." It's bad for business, and they're going for the DIY market that gets their information from YouTube.
Regardless, it IS possible to set up a lanyard as tight as it needs to be: even big Gunboat cats are often set up with lashings on the shrouds. That they're cats notwithstanding, they set those shrouds up pretty tight. It's a simple matter of a come-along and a spanish burton, if necessary to multiply the force.
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Old 23-09-2023, 16:24   #589
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Well, they don't want to SAY that they've found customers too helpless to set up a lanyard properly, lest they come back later and say "They said I could but I can't--this stuff doesn't work." It's bad for business, and they're going for the DIY market that gets their information from YouTube.
Regardless, it IS possible to set up a lanyard as tight as it needs to be: even big Gunboat cats are often set up with lashings on the shrouds. That they're cats notwithstanding, they set those shrouds up pretty tight. It's a simple matter of a come-along and a spanish burton, if necessary to multiply the force.
Just a heads up... Gunboats, HH cats, etc use Hydraulic Jack systems to get adequate tension on their lashed shrouds. Everything is lashed at first to get the stretch out, then loops are made and installed, then the mast is jacked up to tension and plates inserted. There's simply no way we can get adequate tension on those rigs with lashings.
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Old 23-09-2023, 19:31   #590
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Exactly, at some point I just have to let it go
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Old 24-09-2023, 04:26   #591
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Just a heads up... Gunboats, HH cats, etc use Hydraulic Jack systems to get adequate tension on their lashed shrouds. Everything is lashed at first to get the stretch out, then loops are made and installed, then the mast is jacked up to tension and plates inserted. There's simply no way we can get adequate tension on those rigs with lashings.
They don't all; and there are other bits of standing rigging that don't get jacked, but still get set up with lanyards.
Maybe if I had rigged some of these I would know....oh wait: I have.
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Old 24-09-2023, 20:26   #592
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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They don't all; and there are other bits of standing rigging that don't get jacked, but still get set up with lanyards.
Maybe if I had rigged some of these I would know....oh wait: I have.
Not sure why the sarcasm....

Anyway. Genuinely curious. Which shrouds or stays on high performance cats (and which models) were lashed and no jacks utilized?
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Old 25-09-2023, 03:22   #593
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Not sure why the sarcasm....

Anyway. Genuinely curious. Which shrouds or stays on high performance cats (and which models) were lashed and no jacks utilized?
The sarcasm is necessary here at the back end of a long thread of trying to help Chotu with his rigging conundrum, sharing hard-won expertise only to be assaulted by people who say: "my favorite YouTuber says that the thing you do daily as a living is impossible, and he must be right 'cause he makes internet videos." But I should know to expect that on internet forums by now.

Anyhow, the Gunboat 66 Moondoggie, formerly Tiger Lily, has intermediates I set up with lanyards alone. Also the longeron shrouds, and a set of stays to keep the anchor case out on the longeron from deflecting.

Not a cat, but the custom 60-ish foot trimaran "Finn" has lashed intermediates on her canting, rotating mast, and the shrouds attach to the hydraulics with a Dyneema pennant which I had to field-short splice while the mast was up. Incidentally to rotating masts, how many do you know that have jack plates? I didn't think that was a thing, but plenty of big multihulls sport rotating and canting masts.

But I have to apologize to Chotu for abetting this thread drift--he doesn't have a mast jack, and once you're talking about jacking up masts the discussion of turnbuckles vs lanyards is irrelevant, since even turnbuckles can't mimic the compression of a jack. The major point here is that it is possible, with the correct setup, to achieve the same tension with a lanyard as it is with a turnbuckle. Notwithstanding any amount of youtube videos to the contrary.
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Old 25-09-2023, 05:18   #594
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I didnít quote YouTubers I quoted John of Colligo Marine, very well known as being an expert on the art of dyneema rigging.
Rotating masts donít need anywhere near the tension of a fixed mast, so turnbuckles arenít as much of a necessity.
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Old 25-09-2023, 05:42   #595
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Also, that Youtuber I linked to has been using lashings for tightening for years. In particular, the video I linked shows how itís done! I donít know of anyone saying it canít be done, but all with experience as well as experts agree that turnbuckles are superior(except benz).

I believe this exception is driving by him having lashings and not able to accept the idea something else is better.
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Old 25-09-2023, 07:27   #596
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Also, that Youtuber I linked to has been using lashings for tightening for years. In particular, the video I linked shows how itís done! I donít know of anyone saying it canít be done, but all with experience as well as experts agree that turnbuckles are superior(except benz).



I believe this exception is driving by him having lashings and not able to accept the idea something else is better.


We have both lashings and turnbuckles on a rotating rig. Lashings as we werenít sure of the overall length at the time and turnbuckles as we had 2 brand new ones. Even though our rig doesnít have much tension, the turnbuckles make it really easy to adjust. Downside? Another item to fail.
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Old 25-09-2023, 07:27   #597
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I don’t know if this will work, but can we all settle this?

I don’t think this is a very productive area to argue.

There are different ways of doing things. I also don’t want anyone participating in this thread to get alienated and feel like they can’t read it or respond because there are people arguing with them.

Turnbuckles seem easy and idiot proof (yay for me … lol), lashings seem like an art.

I think we have determined that they can be done both ways. However, it’s up to the owner of the boat to decide which way and people will decide different things.

I don’t think it needs to be argued or debated down to a win. Just let other people do it the way they want to do it. Even if you think it’s wrong.

I might still have a question here or something. I would hate to have the thread closed down.

On topic, I have to slide my mast base back about 12 inches as soon as the weather is cooperative, then get the new roller Furler on the new forestay.

The Furler is a lot more complicated than anticipated because the moron that ordered the parts ordered incompatible parts. I had to get a new eye for the turnbuckle to work with the furler. There are also some pretty annoying measurements to make. Many many measurements and a big worksheet just to get the furler on the forestay.

Mast should go vertical this week
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Old 25-09-2023, 11:11   #598
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Mast should go vertical this week
Glad to hear that.

It's funny, just a day or so ago I was wondering if your mast was vertical. But with 3,000 pages of this thread (okay, maybe not quite that many) I was sure that I would have missed it if it had been posted and I didn't want to ask a silly question "is it up yet?" If it had already been posted.

You don't just need a glass of champagne when that goes up, you should have a whole case. It's been a long time coming!
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Old 25-09-2023, 12:01   #599
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Anyhow, the Gunboat 66 Moondoggie, formerly Tiger Lily, has intermediates I set up with lanyards alone. Also the longeron shrouds, and a set of stays to keep the anchor case out on the longeron from deflecting.

Not a cat, but the custom 60-ish foot trimaran "Finn" has lashed intermediates on her canting, rotating mast, and the shrouds attach to the hydraulics with a Dyneema pennant which I had to field-short splice while the mast was up. Incidentally to rotating masts, how many do you know that have jack plates? I didn't think that was a thing, but plenty of big multihulls sport rotating and canting masts.

But I have to apologize to Chotu for abetting this thread drift--he doesn't have a mast jack, and once you're talking about jacking up masts the discussion of turnbuckles vs lanyards is irrelevant, since even turnbuckles can't mimic the compression of a jack. The major point here is that it is possible, with the correct setup, to achieve the same tension with a lanyard as it is with a turnbuckle. Notwithstanding any amount of youtube videos to the contrary.
Not to beat a dead horse... because it seems very much alive still since you keep insisting that lashings can do everything a TB can. The gunboat 66 you referenced had turnbuckles on the uppers... likely because she didn't have jacks... because without turnbuckles you simply can't gain the same tension.
I think we all know that intermediates don't require the same tension as uppers.

You seem very much set on convincing everybody that lashings can replace turnbuckles in every circumstance, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. I don't believe they can, hence the use of turnbuckles, or mast jacks, on all higher load required boats. Of course rotating rigs aren't part of the same equation, since they don't require as much tension.

Anyway.. not my hill to die on.

Chotu. Apologies. Looking forward to you getting that rig up! Turnbuckles, lashings, and all!
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Old 25-09-2023, 12:38   #600
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Chotu, I'm sorry again that your thread got derailed, and I'm very glad to hear that your mast is going up.

It seems impossible on online forums, once the tiniest rabbit trail is introduced, to fetch things back to the original topic. So, until perhaps I can discuss things face to face with those here to whom I seem to have given offense, I'll simply concede them the point. What I think I know is obviously wrong--I just hope I keep getting lucky and not lose any rigs.
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