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Old 19-09-2023, 02:43   #571
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Chotu, your lashing is different from others on standing rigging because you use turnbuckles for tensioning instead of the lashing.

Your lashing is just for lengthening the shrouds.

This means you can ignore the ďuneven loadingĒ of turns, which only occurs when the shroud is tensioned with the lashing.

So, while totally not important during stepping of the mast, I recommend to use a frapping using small stuff like Lash-it in the spot where the hitches go, then do those hitches over the frapping.

See attachment for what the frapping looks like. That Rigging Doctor guy on YouTube shows how to do them really tight. The frapping alone will hold the lashing, this means that even when a turn of the lashing breaks, the other turns still hold, donít slip out.

I bought Samson Lash-it (you can also use Zing-it) on Amazon.
For those who appreciate pedantry, that "frapping" is known as a "seizing." The frapping turns are only those across the body of the seizing that squeeze the turns of the seizing tight.
I'm curious though, since I believe in the effectiveness of the seizing, do you set up the shroud and never tune it again, or do you cut the seizing off and re-do it each time you want to take up a little on the lanyard? It seems like unless you were happy long-term with the tension on that shroud, it'd be a hassle to cut and re-do the seizing each tuning.
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Old 19-09-2023, 04:24   #572
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I am not sure if we are having a general discussion or a discussion about my boat in particular, but for my boat there are turnbuckles so there’s no adjustment on the synthetic part of the shrouds in my case.

Well, at least for this run. When it’s time to replace the shroud entirely, it will be different but probably still have turnbuckles because they are useful
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Old 19-09-2023, 06:12   #573
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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For those who appreciate pedantry, that "frapping" is known as a "seizing." The frapping turns are only those across the body of the seizing that squeeze the turns of the seizing tight.
I'm curious though, since I believe in the effectiveness of the seizing, do you set up the shroud and never tune it again, or do you cut the seizing off and re-do it each time you want to take up a little on the lanyard? It seems like unless you were happy long-term with the tension on that shroud, it'd be a hassle to cut and re-do the seizing each tuning.
You describe the ďfrapping turnsĒ of a lashing (not seizing) and I completely agree with that. Soon I will show how I mount a huge solar array with just lashings and frapping turns. I have to check every word I write here because I mess the terms up as well

But for standing rigging that is tensioned using the lashing (unlike this case where Chotu uses turnbuckles) then the part of the lashing line that you pull on, is attached to a winch and a block or LFR is used to change the direction of pull from the low side of the lashing towards the winch. This means that this part is not available for making frapping turns, so a separate, small diameter Dyneema line is used for that. When that frapping is set, you mark the lashing loops with a line across them, then slowly release tension and check that the frapping holds. If so, then you detach the line and block/ring and finish the lashing by tying a French whipping around the frapping to hide it and protect it.

For other readers: the frapping does two things: it not only holds the lashing, but also tightens it by pulling it together, which makes the lashing shorter

You also have frapping turns when you have a seizing that holds two parallel lines together. I have used stitch & seize where there was no room for a splice or knot and even in high load applications, those seizings hold until UV exposure ruins the material. It is the frapping turns around the seizing, that go in between the two lines that make the seizing extra tight and are crucial for successful application.
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Old 20-09-2023, 02:35   #574
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

^^So, whatever you choose to call it, that seizing that holds all the legs of the lashing together stays in place after you've tied off the tail of the lashing?
The question remains: do you cut it off each time you need to tune? Do you need to tune often/at all?
I prevent the lashing legs from slipping back while I tie the tail off by doubling a dyneema strop around the legs, then twisting that tight with a lever (I use a belaying pin or a long screwdriver), just like a Spanish windlass, until they can't move. Once the lashing tail is tied off, I take the spanish windlass off and use it for the next shroud. It's a lot quicker, and since I tune a little each side at a time, that speed is essential.
BTW, thanks for the tip upthread about Tef-Gel being on Amazon...all my normal stores are out, but I found some there. I need to be more Amazon-centric.
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Old 20-09-2023, 02:54   #575
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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^^So, whatever you choose to call it, that seizing that holds all the legs of the lashing together stays in place after you've tied off the tail of the lashing?
The question remains: do you cut it off each time you need to tune? Do you need to tune often/at all?
I prevent the lashing legs from slipping back while I tie the tail off by doubling a dyneema strop around the legs, then twisting that tight with a lever (I use a belaying pin or a long screwdriver), just like a Spanish windlass, until they can't move. Once the lashing tail is tied off, I take the spanish windlass off and use it for the next shroud. It's a lot quicker, and since I tune a little each side at a time, that speed is essential.
BTW, thanks for the tip upthread about Tef-Gel being on Amazon...all my normal stores are out, but I found some there. I need to be more Amazon-centric.

There is nothing to tune, it has turnbuckles to tune the cap shrouds and lowers, all this dyneema dilemma is to connect the turnbuckles to the chainplate.
That's what I understand after following this thread.
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Old 20-09-2023, 05:10   #576
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
^^So, whatever you choose to call it, that seizing that holds all the legs of the lashing together stays in place after you've tied off the tail of the lashing?
The question remains: do you cut it off each time you need to tune? Do you need to tune often/at all?
I prevent the lashing legs from slipping back while I tie the tail off by doubling a dyneema strop around the legs, then twisting that tight with a lever (I use a belaying pin or a long screwdriver), just like a Spanish windlass, until they can't move. Once the lashing tail is tied off, I take the spanish windlass off and use it for the next shroud. It's a lot quicker, and since I tune a little each side at a time, that speed is essential.
BTW, thanks for the tip upthread about Tef-Gel being on Amazon...all my normal stores are out, but I found some there. I need to be more Amazon-centric.
No tuning on the fixed length portion of the shroud. If you donít have the frapping, you will loose the entire shroud when one strand of the lashing breaks. Also, it will give a little under tension, which worsens the unbalance of loading in the lashing. Thereís lots of info online to Google, basically, turnbuckles are preferred.

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There is nothing to tune, it has turnbuckles to tune the cap shrouds and lowers, all this dyneema dilemma is to connect the turnbuckles to the chainplate.
That's what I understand after following this thread.
Exactly
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Old 21-09-2023, 06:03   #577
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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There is nothing to tune, it has turnbuckles to tune the cap shrouds and lowers, all this dyneema dilemma is to connect the turnbuckles to the chainplate.
That's what I understand after following this thread.
I understand that with Chotu's boat, but I was asking Jedi about the lanyard in his picture, which I assumed was his tesioning method. If he's also using the lashing to attach to a turnbuckle, then the question is moot.
For those of us who tension with a lanyard alone-no turnbuckle-the seizing wouldn't make sense, hence the question.
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Old 21-09-2023, 06:26   #578
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I understand that with Chotu's boat, but I was asking Jedi about the lanyard in his picture, which I assumed was his tesioning method. If he's also using the lashing to attach to a turnbuckle, then the question is moot.
For those of us who tension with a lanyard alone-no turnbuckle-the seizing wouldn't make sense, hence the question.
Still itís what many or even most do in that situation. The reasons are so that it doesnít slip, less imbalance in tension on the loops of the lashing and most importantly that you donít lose the shroud when one loop of the lashing breaks, which is more likely because of the uneven loading.

Also, you think it needs to be cut offÖ it doesnít, you can simply untie it and make it smaller than on that picture.

Here is a video showing the process. Please note that turnbuckles are far superior and these guys also switched to turnbuckles later on
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Old 21-09-2023, 17:48   #579
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Still itís what many or even most do in that situation. The reasons are so that it doesnít slip, less imbalance in tension on the loops of the lashing and most importantly that you donít lose the shroud when one loop of the lashing breaks, which is more likely because of the uneven loading.

Also, you think it needs to be cut offÖ it doesnít, you can simply untie it and make it smaller than on that picture.

Here is a video showing the process. Please note that turnbuckles are far superior and these guys also switched to turnbuckles later on
Thanks for the link to the vid. I can only say that given the level of skill and knowledge of rigging there displayed, it's probably for the best for that guy to stick with turnbuckles.
It's nothing personal--either toward you or him, but rigging can be far more simple and elegant than that, and synthetic rigging deserves better than the circus there showed.
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Old 21-09-2023, 18:57   #580
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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And cool!!! I already have some of that frapping line (see pic).
Chotu, that pic of those spools of frapping line caught my eye. Can you give more details? Size, material, price, and most importantly vendor? It looks to be white, which I find attractive.
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Old 22-09-2023, 03:07   #581
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Chotu, that pic of those spools of frapping line caught my eye. Can you give more details? Size, material, price, and most importantly vendor? It looks to be white, which I find attractive.
I know it came from here:

https://californiacordage.com/

It’s 3mm or slightly smaller.
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Old 22-09-2023, 03:39   #582
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I know it came from here:

https://californiacordage.com/

Itís 3mm or slightly smaller.
Thanks. Interesting vendor! Two more questions:
* Are those spools UHMWPE, or Polyester? I assume UHMWPE ('cause that's how you roll), but they look more white than anything on their web page, so perhaps it's polyester.

* They appear to be wholesale only. Is that true, or will they sell to individuals if you call them?
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Old 22-09-2023, 03:46   #583
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Thanks. Interesting vendor! Two more questions:
* Are those spools UHMWPE, or Polyester? I assume UHMWPE ('cause that's how you roll), but they look more white than anything on their web page, so perhaps it's polyester.

* They appear to be wholesale only. Is that true, or will they sell to individuals if you call them?

That's why I couldn't directly link to the product on the site. I couldn't seem to find it in white on the site.

It's tiny UHMWPE with the cover, I think. Makes it less slippery

It may not be available retail from them and you may have to purchase through a business. Those spools were picked up in the process of the rigging fiasco in Hatteras, so he had a small (very small - just him) business to order them through.

My best guess is it's this product:

https://californiacordage.com/collec...s/dynabraid-sd
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Old 22-09-2023, 04:03   #584
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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That's why I couldn't directly link to the product on the site. I couldn't seem to find it in white on the site.

It's tiny UHMWPE with the cover, I think. Makes it less slippery

It may not be available retail from them and you may have to purchase through a business. Those spools were picked up in the process of the rigging fiasco in Hatteras, so he had a small (very small - just him) business to order them through.

My best guess is it's this product:

https://californiacordage.com/collec...s/dynabraid-sd

Nice stuff! I've made a lot of lines on the boat with 100% UHMWPE, with polyester cover at select spots. It is a great combination. I also have some very small (1-2mm) UHMWPE that is plenty strong, but too small to work with and a skin of polyester (like the product you have) would be a huge improvement.
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Old 22-09-2023, 11:34   #585
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Thanks for the link to the vid. I can only say that given the level of skill and knowledge of rigging there displayed, it's probably for the best for that guy to stick with turnbuckles.
It's nothing personal--either toward you or him, but rigging can be far more simple and elegant than that, and synthetic rigging deserves better than the circus there showed.
You know, whacking and insulting this guy has really grown old. If you think you can do better, then record and post it. He did not make any of this up, if you ask riggers, incl. Colligo, they will all agree that for Dyneema rigging, turnbuckles work much better than lashings and they all made the switch back to turnbuckles.
A couple minutes on Google would have showed you that, instead of firstly being ridiculously rude to someone who takes a lot of effort in showing techniques for free and secondly making yourself look silly as it is you, not him, going against all professional consensus.

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Nice stuff! I've made a lot of lines on the boat with 100% UHMWPE, with polyester cover at select spots. It is a great combination. I also have some very small (1-2mm) UHMWPE that is plenty strong, but too small to work with and a skin of polyester (like the product you have) would be a huge improvement.
I use New England Spyderline for that and itís great, but not for this because you want slippery to get it all tight. Samson Lash-it is easily available, affordable and a far superior product for this.
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