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Old 06-09-2023, 21:02   #466
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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OK. To clear up the confusion, let me explain some details. Then can we please drop the talk about transducers? I had no questions about transducers. I asked nothing at all about them at all.

My boatís laminate schedule:

óóóó
36oz triax
25mm (1inch) corecell
36oz triax
óóóó-


All 36oz triax has the uni fibers running uninterrupted from the bow to the stern.

Locally, there are some high density foam areas and extra fiberglass layers as needed.

For instance, in the keel area, there is an extra 24oz biax tape outside the hull on top of other layers of extra 24oz tape both inside the hull and outside. All of that glass is around 1Ē corecell.

The transducer is in the forward starboard hull. Itís in an area that has been decored with a hole saw and then liquid epoxy poured in to mount the transducer. It doesnít work.

My theory is in 100 degree northern Florida heat, the big lump of epoxy overheated a little bit and got bubbles in it. There is no direct evidence of this, but what else could it be, really?

Now, Can we please stop talking about transducers? This has nothing to do with standing rigging. All I was doing was obliging the conversation about them. But it is become quite a negative on the thread. It has frustrated both jedi and myself. Lol and probably everyone else.

I would really prefer to talk about the standing rigging in here. Not only that, I donít even have questions about transducers. You guys just want to talk about them. But maybe we should make a new thread to chat about them. I donít know.
This all started with the routing of cables. Does the design give any guidance on that? I have never seen cabling exiting a deck step mast, then follow halyards and control lines aft. And I have seen many catamarans. There must be a better way and often this can be solved by looking at other wiring running fore to aft, possibly joining that same path. Normally, depth transducers are mounted forward of the mast.

I hope you now see how this came to be. I have nothing to win or loose over how you route your wiring; I was just trying to help you find the optimal solution because you asked.
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Old 07-09-2023, 10:24   #467
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

All halyards are in.

All new sheaves.

Wiring for tricolor/anchor done, tricolor/anchor installed.

AWA/AWS transducer installed, wiring done.

New VHF coax run.

Steaming/foredeck light installed and wiring done.

Mast cleats installed.

Spreader light wiring done.

I had a BLAST using the drill and tap kit recommended by Jedi. It was actually fun.

As a small aside: there is a big, big difference between indoor wiring and outdoor wiring. In one of these pictures you can see tinned Ancor wiring that was outside only since June 2023. About 2 months. I have tons of 10 year old, non marine wire inside from temporary construction setups that is perfectly shiny copper when you open it up.

Either tinned copper is a scam and a half, or the conditions outside vs inside are incredibly different and we need to rethink what we use for indoor wiring.
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Old 07-09-2023, 10:33   #468
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Any environment where moisture can get to wiring is a tough one. Salt makes it even worse. Tinned wire with well sealed connectors is pretty much as good as it gets for having it last, but if the sealing fails and moisture gets in, even tinned wire won't always hold up (although it'll last better than untinned would in the same environment).
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Old 07-09-2023, 11:00   #469
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
This all started with the routing of cables. Does the design give any guidance on that? I have never seen cabling exiting a deck step mast, then follow halyards and control lines aft. And I have seen many catamarans. There must be a better way and often this can be solved by looking at other wiring running fore to aft, possibly joining that same path. Normally, depth transducers are mounted forward of the mast.

I hope you now see how this came to be. I have nothing to win or loose over how you route your wiring; I was just trying to help you find the optimal solution because you asked.

I know. Your posts are greatly appreciated. You have helped tremendously. I had a lot of fun with the drill and tap kit too. Never had one of those before.

Itís just that everybody else also piled on with the transducer stuff too when itís not even part of whatís happening or anything I asked about. The thread took a serious tangent with people telling me all about transducers.

I guess I just have to take the good with the bad lol. Thereís a lot of good here. So it outweighs the difficult stuff lately in this thread.

But I think itís important to realize the transducer is 12ft to starboard of the mast. Inside the boat. The mast is outside. On deck. So they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Thatís what was missing I guess. Itís a catamaran. Plus, itís already been installed for like 8 years. Totally unrelated. Comes to the helm from starboard while the mast wiring comes from port.

I agree there are no other catamarans with a conduit going from the mast inside. There are also almost no other Catamarans with a plinth and all of the sail controls going inside. Rather than having more holes to make, I thought it might be nice to run the conduit in with everything else thatís running in. I could make quite a nice connector. So basically you just plug in your mast when itís up or unplug it when itís time to pull it.

Itís just an idea, but I donít have to do any of that until next spring. It doesnít relate to the standing rigging thread.

Donít feel like Iím singling you out by the way. Your help has been ridiculously good and things have moved along because of it. Iím quite thankful. It was that the thread was just going down a bad path to the transducer stuff. It got momentum in the wrong direction.

Im at fault actually. I decided to talk about the transducers with you then everyone thought I was asking questions about them.
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Old 08-09-2023, 03:10   #470
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ö
I agree there are no other catamarans with a conduit going from the mast inside. ...

Our mast wiring was like that - it had a vertical standpipe that stood up about 10cm above the base, so theoretically the wires looped down before entering the pipe. Then inside under the mast step there was a flexible pipe hose clamped to the mastís standpipe. This hose led horizontally through the main bulkhead into the wiring area. To lift the mast meant disconnecting the wires and undoing the hose clamp so that the wires could be pulled through the horizontal pipe and go with the mast.

This system sucked and allowed lots of water into the main beam cavity.

We replaced it with a side hole about 15cm above the base of the mast in the middle of a side face. The wires loop down inside the mast as the hole is above the ends of the three wire conduits. The wires go through a flexible hose that is attached to a large through hull fitting on the front of our cabin, then into the wiring area. No more water coming into the boat. Plugging that big hole in the mast step was a pleasure.

All the electrical wires terminate at a junction box, so can be easily disconnected for mast removal. Except for
- radar cable (terminates at Raynet switch)
- wind instrument cable (terminates at ITC-5 transducer)
- VHF/AIS LMR400 cable (terminates at AIS unit)
- Mobile LMR400 cable (terminates at router)

Your idea to bring the wiring into the cabin via a conduit alongside your rigging lines is a good idea. Make an exit hole in the middle of a wide side of your mast - it only needs to be a little bigger than the bundle of wires.
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Old 08-09-2023, 04:36   #471
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Wow Fxykty!

That’s exactly what I was dreaming up. It’s perfect.

I have to create a sort of big rectangular dorade box where all of the rigging stuff comes in. So, it’s natural to run everything right through it in a conduit.

I have already made that hole on the flat face of the mast and also, my in mast conduit termination is lower than the hole as well so no drips.

We have a lot more similarities than I thought. Ha ha. Very similar ways of doing things when it comes to the outfitting.

Standard boats have a lot of problems and creatively solving them is pretty fun actually. Sometimes it’s good to do what everyone else does. Other times it’s better to do it in a better way. I don’t have to do this until spring, but I will proceed with the conduit.

Not much left on the standing rigging side of things now.

The hardest part is going to be putting together the Furler on the forestay, which is already installed.

I also forgot to run my spreader light wire. I got it up to the right spot, but getting it through the little tiny hole with all of the stupid foam that they put into this mast is proving pretty difficult. There seems to be a large concentration of multiple layers of foam where there’s a small hole is so I can’t see anything in there. I’m ripping it out one square centimeter at a time with a coat hanger. Hours of senseless work.

Then I have to test all of the wiring and lighting to make sure it all works. Mount the VHF antenna. Hook up the coax to the antenna. Put on the double diamonds and shrouds. Oh yeah. And bolt on and externally wire the spreader lights. I may just find some machine screws on the boat that work for them and drill and tap those with lock washers because it’s exceedingly difficult to get a nut on a bolt inside the spreaders.

No radar yet, but it’s low enough that a ladder will make it easy to install later.

And that’s about it! Everything else is done.

It’s kind of nice having everything brand new and done to a level that I can trust it.
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Old 08-09-2023, 08:42   #472
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

When you cut tinned copper wire, you expose copper and it will corrode quickly. I am assuming the cable was outside like shown in the picture, not connected to anything.

This is why it is important to use crimp connectors with glue lined heat shrink body like Ancor or the cheaper Wirefy and use the correct crimp die that doesnít damage this.

I have bare copper marine wire (marine grade wiredoes not have to be tinned) inside that still looks good because it is hermetically shielded from air exposure.

I also have bare copper regular wire that has hardened so that the insulation cracks when I bend it.

So many different qualities of wire.
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Old 08-09-2023, 09:48   #473
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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When you cut tinned copper wire, you expose copper and it will corrode quickly. I am assuming the cable was outside like shown in the picture, not connected to anything.

This is why it is important to use crimp connectors with glue lined heat shrink body like Ancor or the cheaper Wirefy and use the correct crimp die that doesnít damage this.

I have bare copper marine wire (marine grade wiredoes not have to be tinned) inside that still looks good because it is hermetically shielded from air exposure.

I also have bare copper regular wire that has hardened so that the insulation cracks when I bend it.

So many different qualities of wire.
Yes. It was outside. Iím just amazed that it happened so quickly.

And I was equally amazed my junk Home Depot temporary inside wiring lasted nearly 10 years now without so much as a discoloration.

So much variability. Mostly the indoor wiring was surprising to me.
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Old 08-09-2023, 09:51   #474
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Back to standing rigging a moment.

Almost time to tune the double diamond stays.

Thinking these should be pretty tight but not overly crazy tight because their sole purpose is to keep the mast in column athwartship. Tight with no play, but not trying to really compress the mast.

As the mast starts to go out of column, they take over quite quickly. There is no stretch since the diamond stays came with the mast and have already stretched.

Thinking similar tightness to the martingale stay before the martingale stay is loaded.
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Old 08-09-2023, 10:17   #475
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

If you have the mast still on the ground, 15 to 20%, go side by side, I mean 3 turns on one side and you go to the other, they should be tight, with that 15 to 20 being short you will see that they are tight, look along the mainsail track for example or choose another reference point, if you see it twisting to one side you compensate with the other, if not , repeat again the process, one set of spreaders and then the other.
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Old 08-09-2023, 10:23   #476
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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If you have the mast still on the ground, 15 to 20%, go side by side, I mean 3 turns on one side and you go to the other, they should be tight, with that 15 to 20 being short you will see that they are tight, look along the mainsail track for example or choose another reference point, if you see it twisting to one side you compensate with the other, if not , repeat again the process, one set of spreaders and then the other.

Yes. Sounds good. Just like I used to tune my old masts on my old monohulls.

I would just put my head down on the deck and lie on my back and sight the mast.

Then I would head off the boat and look at it from different angles too.

But yes. I am going to be tuning the diamond while it is still down. I think. I don’t see any reason not to.
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Old 08-09-2023, 10:41   #477
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Another thing you can do, assuming that the wires are the same on each side, is that when you tension by hand until you reach a certain resistance, measure from pin to pin with a meter, tang pin to the wire terminal pin, or end of the bottom toggle to pin ,do not measure where the swage ends.
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Old 08-09-2023, 10:50   #478
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Another thing you can do, assuming that the wires are the same on each side, is that when you tension by hand until you reach a certain resistance, measure from pin to pin with a meter, tang pin to the wire terminal pin, or end of the bottom toggle to pin ,do not measure where the swage ends.
True. That would square it up nicely also.
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Old 08-09-2023, 13:25   #479
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
When you cut tinned copper wire, you expose copper and it will corrode quickly. I am assuming the cable was outside like shown in the picture, not connected to anything.



This is why it is important to use crimp connectors with glue lined heat shrink body like Ancor or the cheaper Wirefy and use the correct crimp die that doesnít damage this.



I have bare copper marine wire (marine grade wiredoes not have to be tinned) inside that still looks good because it is hermetically shielded from air exposure.



I also have bare copper regular wire that has hardened so that the insulation cracks when I bend it.



So many different qualities of wire.


Well to be fair you are mostly describing how the insulation is put on the wire itself
I did a stint of wire design in a previous life and the insulation material and construction type can make or break its suitability for purpose

Generally higher strand count is more flexible and closer in cross sectional mils to solid core
A blown on insulator can make the resulting wire very flexible but subject to gas or liquid intrusion
A molded on insulator is less flexible but also less susceptible to gas or liquid intrusion
Also the insulation material can be sold or hard
All that plus susceptible to uv, petroleum or other breakdown causes
Then there are multi core cables with all the above characteristics plus the cover characteristics for the individual conductors inside

Lower strand counts give you a more rigid wire able to stay in place but susceptible to hardening where constrained

Higher strand counts donít have that particular issue but need more support or they flop around which has itís own problems

Hopefully this will be helpful to someone
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Old 08-09-2023, 14:01   #480
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Are the wires with more strands more susceptible to corrosion owing to greater surface area? I mistakenly ordered some heavy wire with lots of small strands. Then I ordered another batch with less strands. Thinking I'll use the less strands.
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