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Old 23-07-2023, 18:03   #31
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Chotu, how much extra length do you need? Canít you make a long toggle out of stainless steel bar stock?
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Old 23-07-2023, 19:16   #32
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Chotu, how much extra length do you need? Can’t you make a long toggle out of stainless steel bar stock?
No. Its like 5 ft and I want it lightweight and inexpensive.

There are a couple of good responses that you guys made above, you included Jedi.


It’s late. Going to sleep. I will respond tomorrow at some point

But thank you for participating. I think there are some very good ideas here
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Old 23-07-2023, 19:55   #33
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I wouldnít worry about the weld so much.



On the chainplates: that is not a lashing connecting to itÖ these are Dyneema deadeyes, basically a loop. The ones that go around the pin are simply stuck through the upper fitting so that you have two loops coming down that the pin goes through.



When you need small diameter deadeyes you need to do that rigging doctor trick by re-braiding the Dyneema to create the Brummel lock. For a long loop you can simply bury a much longer tail.



I thought composite chainplates are all able to connect a turnbuckle? Like attached pictureÖ



For strong rings, I just received these 15 metric tons SWL low friction ringsÖ they are beasts and I will test these for my running backstay tails instead of blocks. They are hard anodized aluminum and affordable: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BP21MS1B

Great idea to use a Dyneema loop to make the extension between the bottom end of the turnbuckle to the chainplate pin. Creating a three pass loop of 1/4Ē SK-78 inside a cover will be plenty strong and without creep. Two of these per side will be pretty cheap to make. Lashings are even easier, but the loops will look and perform much better and donít need any fancy thimbles/terminators https://www.colligomarine.com/produc...te-distributor. The loop uses the chainplate pin at one end and the toggle fork pin at the bottom of the turnbuckle. No new hardware needed!

We used Colligo rings https://www.velasailingsupply.com/co...-lashing-line/ for our running backstays in place of blocks like this. Those 4x4 rings should be good, but the only issue might be quality of anodising as theyíre not intended for marine use. But theyíre cheap enough to replace.
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Old 24-07-2023, 02:23   #34
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

I skimmed most of this, but it's amazing how your threads explode into 3 pages in a matter of hours.
Some quick thoughts:
You can lash directly to the chainplate pin--it has a nice round profile.
At the top end, any bow shackle at the bottom of the turnbuckle would do. While Colligo kit is really nice (I use it on my boat), it's not really meant for cobbling with wire, and will not give full value like if you were using Dyneema shrouds.

A better idea though, is to extend the shrouds with fixed-length strops, put them aloft where you'll get the best weight advantage, and have the turnbuckles go directly to the chainplates. That way you can adjust normally.
I would use covered dyneema eye-to-eye strops--any decent rigging shop can make those, and pre-stretch them, to any exact dimension you need. The eyes will be small enough to simply use on the existing clevis pins.
I can offer a lot more information if you'd like to email me directly. It's easier to communicate that way.
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Old 24-07-2023, 02:47   #35
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Great idea to use a Dyneema loop to make the extension between the bottom end of the turnbuckle to the chainplate pin. Creating a three pass loop of 1/4Ē SK-78 inside a cover will be plenty strong and without creep. Two of these per side will be pretty cheap to make. Lashings are even easier, but the loops will look and perform much better and donít need any fancy thimbles/terminators https://www.colligomarine.com/produc...te-distributor. The loop uses the chainplate pin at one end and the toggle fork pin at the bottom of the turnbuckle. No new hardware needed!

We used Colligo rings https://www.velasailingsupply.com/co...-lashing-line/ for our running backstays in place of blocks like this. Those 4x4 rings should be good, but the only issue might be quality of anodising as theyíre not intended for marine use. But theyíre cheap enough to replace.
Attachment 278595
Yes, I am a fan of Dyneema loops and started using them everywhere. I still need to buy good cover for this, which one do you recommend?

The 4x4 rings are hard anodized and look amazing quality, although a bit overkill probably. It is your runners setup that Iím copying, thank you
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:02   #36
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
No. Its like 5 ft and I want it lightweight and inexpensive.

There are a couple of good responses that you guys made above, you included Jedi.


Itís late. Going to sleep. I will respond tomorrow at some point

But thank you for participating. I think there are some very good ideas here
Okay, yes 5í is way too much for that. You can use a quality stainless steel anchor chain for the extensionÖ origins of the word chainplate.

But the Dyneema loop is much lighter and can be done with the Dyneema you have. Use that for the extension and the turnbuckle for tensioning.

There are good YouTube videos about splicing these multi-pass loops inside a cover. For temporary setup I donít even think you need a cover.

Using lashings instead of turnbuckles sounds so much like the optimal thing to do, but for modern rigs with high loads the turnbuckle wins hands down. I believe this rigging doctor also reverted back to turnbuckles even though I think he got the best setup with lashings I have seen.
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:15   #37
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Hi.

Thanks for the response. I am going to answer of your questions corresponding to your numbers below.

1) The baby stay might have been nice. However, I cannot have a self tacking jib there is a baby stay. What do you think about that? There is nothing but the forestay to keep it from moving aft. Any ideas about this in general from anyone as well?

2) I think Jedi solved this one. The Dyneema loops/strops are the way to go definitely. Nice job, Jedi. Seriously good idea. No reason to do all that lashing when the loop will do the trick. The loop/strop is actually FREE! I already have enough 1/4” Dyneema to do it as lashings, so the loop/strop will leave me with a lot of 1/4” Dyneema I can use elsewhere too. Best possible solution

3) I had always thought about lashing to the pin. There is some minimum radius with the turns from what I remember. I’ll have to check that. Also, yes. Like you said. Need to be very careful of friction and wear there. I think I’ll go with this plan too as long as the minimum radius is available on the pin. The pin is 1/2” or 5/8”. I’m forgetting right now. Dyneema is 1/4”


5) would the following be OK? I think it’s kind of a composite line. I have lots of this on hand already.

Item no.
DF3034
Description
D2 CLUB 10mm RED 200m R
Colour
RED
Diameter
10 mm
Material type
Dyneema SK75/Polypropylene/Polyester
Average break load
3,820 KG

6) yes. That last Rigger, him putting the mast step in the wrong place after being given the plans and verbal and written instructions from me on exactly where it needs to go, that’s kind of the final straw right there. I couldn’t believe it. From there on a vowed not to let anyone else work on this boat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Use catamaran terminology - you don’t have any backstays. You have a cap shroud and a lower shroud and a running backstay on each side, plus a forestay. These are used to keep the mast standing up. Your mast has double spreaders and diamond stays. These are used to keep the mast in column (side to side). As you note, because the spreaders are inline the diamond stays cannot induce nor hold any mast pre-bend.

You’re using ‘Colligo’ the same way people use ‘Frisbee’ and ‘Wind surfer’, so that should be fine. Just don’t apply the Colligo name to specific items that are not sold by Colligo.

I’m thrilled that ‘sell’ was an autocorrect typo. Phew, I’d thought you’d thrown in the towel.

Now some questions and comments:

1) The lower shrouds prevent the mast from bending too much. Is there also a baby stay or similar to keep the mast from inverting?

2) While Wharram lashings are great for getting ideas from, remember that Wharram cats are designed such that everything is flexible and can move. Your cat is not designed like that and will have much higher loads, both static and dynamic. An example of this difference is using open thimbles (Rigging Doctor and Wharram pics) versus using closed thimbles with individual lashing holes in the Neel and other pics. In an open thimble the lashings interfere with each other and you don’t get equal tension, which means they will move under load and cut each other as they try to equalise. In a closed thimble with lashing holes, each lashing has the same tension, which also means you can use fewer turns (more turns is how you compensate for using open thimbles).

3) Your chainplate end fitting is a simple pin - awesome. Do you have space to lead the lashings around that pin? It’s a good thing not to introduce additional hardware if you don’t need to. The only issue is to prevent the lashings from chafing the fibreglass on either end of the pin - perhaps HDPE washers?

4) You may need pay for proper line terminators that will attach to a toggle fork pin at the bottom of each turnbuckle. Something like this: https://www.colligomarine.com/produc...-11-13mm-black (you would need the 15-17mm with 3/4” pin I think). This picture shows a cap shroud Colligo terminator attached to its turnbuckle toggle fork pin on our boat (yours would be the same, but on the other side of the turnbuckle and the terminator would have lashing holes):Attachment 278580

5) For leech reefing lines I strongly recommend UHMWPE line (single or double braided your choice). With a non-high modulus line the reefing line will stretch and release with every pump of the sail, resulting in squalling. This produces noise and chafe and is the reason for the recommendation to put a line through the reef cringle and around the boom after putting in a reef. Use a high modulus line and there will be no squalling.

6) I think you wrote that you are moving the big mast plate back to the designed mast foot location. Good. If not, make sure that you do. The foot of the mast must be in exactly the right position or your load supports will not be able to do their jobs.
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:27   #38
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Okay, yes 5í is way too much for that. You can use a quality stainless steel anchor chain for the extensionÖ origins of the word chainplate.

But the Dyneema loop is much lighter and can be done with the Dyneema you have. Use that for the extension and the turnbuckle for tensioning.

There are good YouTube videos about splicing these multi-pass loops inside a cover. For temporary setup I donít even think you need a cover.

Using lashings instead of turnbuckles sounds so much like the optimal thing to do, but for modern rigs with high loads the turnbuckle wins hands down. I believe this rigging doctor also reverted back to turnbuckles even though I think he got the best setup with lashings I have seen.

There is no doubt that the loop is the absolute best idea ever. Thank you.

This is definitely the way Iím doing it. No question about it.

Since I already have turnbuckles, the lashing idea was only because thatís what I knew. The loop/strop idea is the way to go since I have existing rigging Iím just lengthening.
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:30   #39
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
I skimmed most of this, but it's amazing how your threads explode into 3 pages in a matter of hours.
Some quick thoughts:
You can lash directly to the chainplate pin--it has a nice round profile.
At the top end, any bow shackle at the bottom of the turnbuckle would do. While Colligo kit is really nice (I use it on my boat), it's not really meant for cobbling with wire, and will not give full value like if you were using Dyneema shrouds.

A better idea though, is to extend the shrouds with fixed-length strops, put them aloft where you'll get the best weight advantage, and have the turnbuckles go directly to the chainplates. That way you can adjust normally.
I would use covered dyneema eye-to-eye strops--any decent rigging shop can make those, and pre-stretch them, to any exact dimension you need. The eyes will be small enough to simply use on the existing clevis pins.
I can offer a lot more information if you'd like to email me directly. It's easier to communicate that way.

Thank you, Benz. I may just take you up on that at some point. The better idea of putting them aloft misses the main point of doing them in the first place, however. The main point is I have an upper shroud and a lower shroud. These have to go to one single chainplate pin and they are in different planes.

So if I put these aloft, I would have to come up with some sort of customized metal hardware to connect these at the bottom to the chain plate.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid. Doing them at the bottom, I won’t have to buy anything and won’t have to do anything. No customized hardware. I already have 1/4” Dyneema.

As long as taking 1/4 inch Dyneema around a 5/8” pin is OK, there is no additional hardware needed.
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:31   #40
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Ultimately, I will either go over to all synthetic rigging or new stainless rigging once it’s time. This is a “for now” type of thing. It will probably last 10 years ha ha or however long these synthetic things last. At least it will be quite easy to inspect and easy to replace without outside help if necessary.

I would say the main question is solved.

I do still have some concern about the baby stay. But there are no boats with a self tacking jib that have a baby stay. So I don’t know what to make of that
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Old 24-07-2023, 03:47   #41
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Now I will need to find a place that allows me to take the mast off the boat and put it on sawhorses and work on it for two or three days to get it ready and then go vertical.

Hopefully there are reasonable places like this around these days.

I was thinking of just hanging off of the end of it and doing the work, but it sure would be a lot easier on the ground
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Old 24-07-2023, 04:15   #42
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Why a self tacking jib? Let me remember when was the last time that we tackedÖ.. waitÖ noÖ seriously, I think it was 2003 during the first year of cruising Jedi. Since then, our tacks are a minimum of 1,000nm and this has always had us end up in a new place to explore instead of tack and continue.

I do like the idea around a self tacking jib, especially when done without all the travelers etc. but it simply isnít used for cruising.

I have a cutter stay and wouldnít want to miss it. It is very easy to pump the mast without it, especially as you donít have the aft-swept spreaders. I had my main mast pumping with 30 degree aft swept spreaders and fixed it by tightening the cutter stay.

Does the rig design show a baby stay? And the mast + rig you have?
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Old 24-07-2023, 04:26   #43
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Why a self tacking jib? Let me remember when was the last time that we tacked….. wait… no… seriously, I think it was 2003 during the first year of cruising Jedi. Since then, our tacks are a minimum of 1,000nm and this has always had us end up in a new place to explore instead of tack and continue.

I do like the idea around a self tacking jib, especially when done without all the travelers etc. but it simply isn’t used for cruising.

I have a cutter stay and wouldn’t want to miss it. It is very easy to pump the mast without it, especially as you don’t have the aft-swept spreaders. I had my main mast pumping with 30 degree aft swept spreaders and fixed it by tightening the cutter stay.

Does the rig design show a baby stay? And the mast + rig you have?

Too late. The plans show a self tacking jib. I already have a self tacking jib. That hardware has already been purchased and is shown in the pictures. I already have the track. I’m not changing that and throwing away a ton of money.

The only thing I could really do is a removable one. Even that is a lot of extra effort that’s not in the plans.
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Old 24-07-2023, 04:33   #44
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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As long as taking 1/4 inch Dyneema around a 5/8Ē pin is OK, there is no additional hardware needed.
That's plenty in terms of radius. Remember, you are making a loop, with multiple passes. The most important thing here is to make sure that no single part of the loop (single pass) is taking more load than the others. And put some cover on it to protect it. You really should pre-stretch (pre-load) the loop to get as much stretch/creep out of it as initially possible. A lot of places that have load cells will do this for between $50 and $200 per pull depending on their setup.
You don't want to spend a bunch of time and effort making some nice loops, and then having them elongate so much that your turnbuckles bottom out in 3 months. Try and set them up so they never see more than 10% of their SWL. I would shoot for 5 % for the application you are using them in.
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Old 24-07-2023, 05:11   #45
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

For extras like the baby stay, I'd skip it to start. Stick with just the basic rig and the running backstays (which I expect you'll need to use with the inline spreaders and no fixed backstay). Watch how the rig behaves, and if you see any points where it's too easy to get the mast to pump or anything, then it's time to add additional support.
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