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Old 01-09-2023, 13:51   #406
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
GunboatÖ looks like they do the self tacking jib on the inner stay as well, see attachment.

Again, your chainplates decide how you do it.
Nope. Gunboat 48

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Old 01-09-2023, 14:18   #407
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Forget the bow sprit or multiple headstays!

Having recently switched from 40 years of a mono to a cat, I've come to realize that monohull thinking still dominates cat sail choices. And much of it is wrong.

I've had a monohull with a solent rig and one with a cutter rig. But on the cat I've just got a relatively small genoa (not self tacking but a very small overlap compared to a monohull). On Chotu's big boat I think a single self tacking headsail is the way to go.

One of the great things I've found about cats is that upwind you are not constantly changing headsails like you do in a monohull. Apparent wind speed builds quickly on a cat going to weather due to boat speed. There just aren't many times that a Code 0 or staysail is helpful going to weather in a cat. I leave the genoa full size until two reefs in the main still leaves the boat overpowered. This just doesn't happen very often.

When the wind is aft of the beam I use an Oxley Levante parasail with the mainsail furled up to 15kts apparent - at which point a reefed main and genoa is plenty of sail to have up. The Oxley can be carried from 90-180 AWA and provides much better boat speed than a Code 0 or Asymmetric spinnaker - with much less trouble for the crew. It has none of the Code 0 problems of furlers, bowsprits, unrolling in harbor, and self destructing in squalls.

So before you go to the trouble of a bowsprit, furlers, and a Code 0 - consider the Oxley. They are more expensive than a Code 0 but not so much as you save the cost of mounting a bowsprit and furler.

More and more cats are going with the Oxley. This video was shot on a passage from Cape Town to Annapolis on a just delivered boat where the Oxley was used more than the mainsail and genoa. They had a very fast passage.

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Old 01-09-2023, 14:19   #408
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Look, the bottom line is I’m not making weird changes to the boat. It’s already set. I have no idea why you guys are pushing something like this. It makes no sense whatsoever.

And who is going to buy the new saiLs for me? To replace the ones I already have? Who is going to come do all the work to create a new (heavy) support system for another stay I don’t need?

I wouldn’t even allow you to come do that anyway. You would ruin the performance of the boat.

This is ridiculously illogical. Like beyond belief. Maybe people are already drunk for the holiday weekend. I don’t know.

This, however, it’s just non-negotiable. This is not part of something that will be changing. I won’t be changing the design of the boat. It will proceed like the rest of the performance catamarans as it was designed to do.

Not changing sail areas to introduce bad weather helm either. This has to be the worst idea I have ever seen on here. Lol

Signing off for the weekend, other than when I return to start doing all of the work on the mast. There will be plenty of pictures and plenty of input. I’m sure you will have great ideas about the mask. And I will follow them. You guys are great. . But I will not be taking input on changing the sail plan and throwing the boat out of balance or adding unnecessary weight.
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Old 01-09-2023, 14:27   #409
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Nope. Gunboat 48



The 68' gunboat does use a inner/outer sail configuration. As does Outremer (carbon performance) Schionning, Grainger, Dazcat. It is a performance thing as the self tacking isn't your light wind sail. It's used for higher winds going to windward... Remember apparent wind builds fast. The Genoa is for lighter windward and mid wind reaching/running.
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Old 01-09-2023, 14:28   #410
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

CarlF: thank you. I will take a look at that when I get there. When it comes time to decide on the south spread and code 0 or whatever. Currently I have the 100% self tacking blade and the spinnaker.
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Old 01-09-2023, 14:29   #411
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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The 68' gunboat does use a inner/outer sail configuration. As does Outremer (carbon performance) Schionning, Grainger, Dazcat. It is a performance thing as the self tacking isn't your light wind sail. It's used for higher winds going to windward... Remember apparent wind builds fast. The Genoa is for lighter windward and mid wind reaching/running.

So are you coming up to install this or what? You’re going to buy my sails? To replace the ones I already have? What are you arguing about?

I could list off 50 of them do it like I do it. Who cares? Why don’t you leave it alone?

You’re not going to convince me to rebuild my boat. You’re not going to convince me to screw up the balance. Do you want to restart building your boat again? Do you want to go many steps backwards only to screw the boat up?

Neither do I. So you can drop it.

I am familiar with the usage of the sails and already have a sail plan.

See the title of the thread? Standing rigging thread.
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Old 01-09-2023, 14:50   #412
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Chart from Seawind
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Old 01-09-2023, 15:13   #413
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Well. Chotu, it was you, not us, bringing forward the idea to install two furlers.
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Old 02-09-2023, 03:23   #414
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Chotu, Iím with you. Iíve checked our logbooks for the 6 years that weíve had our cat, which is similar in proportions and performance with your cat. Much of our sailing has been open ocean non-trade wind passages and open coastal.

Mainsail is easy: 50% full, 35% first reef, 12% second reef, 3% third reef (though when you use it, youíre very thankful for a very deep third reef).

Self tacking jib: 85% full, 15% first reef (now equal to staysail as we no longer can reef the jib), 0.3% second reef (equal to storm jib).

Desire for larger genoa: 20% of full jib time. The self tacking jib is under powered under 10 knots TWS, so we need a sail that can go upwind for 3-9 knots TWS (thatís up to 16 knots AWS). We will add this sail as a flat screecher that is not quite twice the size of the self tacking jib (60-65 sqm vs 36 sqm) set from our bow pole and sheeted inside the cap shrouds at 6* angle.

Even if we were to do our rigging from scratch I think we wouldnít put the genoa/screecher on a permanent forestay, as itís good to remove that furled sail in moderate winds for a clean luff for the self tacking jib. That is after all the primary working headsail on a performance cat. The only exception is if the area that you will be sailing is consistently under 10 knots TWS - then youíre better off with a larger genoa in place of the self tacking jib. Note that the genoa will need to be reefed at the same time as the mainsail gets its first reef (on a performance cat - a charter-oriented cat can carry a full genoa much longer).

Atlantic Cats are the one example of a performance cat that runs a true solent rig with primary overlapping genoa (though small overlap) and a 2/3 hoist inner self tacking staysail that takes care of business when the genoa reefed is too big.

We already have a gennaker/screecher that is 120 sqm and sheets outside the shrouds to the aft corner with a 10* angle. It can go to 38* AWA, but it generates so much speed that our tacking angle is over 140* TWA! It rocks for reaching in any wind speed and broad reaching in heavier winds. We take it DDW by pulling the tack to the windward bow when weíre too lazy to set a spinnaker or remove the main.

Our symmetric spinnaker is 140 sqm and goes for 100-180* TWA. It flies best with no mainsail at all and makes for effortless downwind progress at 50% TWS. Iím not sure that thereís any need to spend way more money of a para sailor of any flavour - I think their only benefit is holding their shape better in very light wind conditions.

You can disregard advice from any monohull sailor as well as any cat sailor who doesnít have a performance cat. Performance cats have a different performance profile and their sail wardrobe needs to reflect that profile.
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Old 02-09-2023, 04:28   #415
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Thank god. Thank you for coming in and rescuing this thread. I was really struggling to understand why people were trying to push me to weird setups that don’t even work with my boat.

I didn’t know how to put it into words like you did. I don’t have the data to back it all up like you do. But this is the exact set up that I’m doing. Exactly as you described with the screecher. I get the names of screecher and code 0 mixed up a little bit. They’re fairly close to each other. But it’s a very flat sail for going more to windward.

I also made the same unconventional choice you did and picked up the symmetric spinnaker. Most of these boats have an asymmetrical, but I like the idea of being able to just really relax downwind. Just fly the spinnaker all by itself and adjust it so it picks up quite a bit of the downwind angles. I have no idea how to put it into numbers like you do. But I’m glad you know how to do that, so others might understand.

The symmetric spinnaker can surprisingly pick up quite a bit of angle downwind and like you were saying about the screecher, you can move it around a bit as well. Very useful stuff.

So, yes. I have the exact set up you do for my sail plan. Exactly in every way.

Due to the price of things, it’s more of a phased approach. I will have the self tacker and spinnaker first. Along with the main of course. Then probably a year after I get sailing I will add the bowsprit and screecher.

The little graphic I put in here from Seawind was a pretty good one. Shows exactly what you are talking about and what I am doing as well.

In any case, this stuff is nonnegotiable. None of this monohull stuff will apply. There is no reason to destroy my boat by making odd changes like that. It’s already set up to work exactly like yours. No matter how much people say I should be changing it to some gaff rig schooner sail plan (ha ha ha), it’s not going to happen.

Thanks again for posting the real world data on this type of rig. While I don’t have the experience using it to know first hand like you did with the numbers, I know it’s the right way to do it.

This thread will be on to the standing rigging again as it should be. I will start the mast fairly soon within the next couple days and put in plenty of pictures and will accept lots of different advice on that. I have to attach wind instruments, VHF antenna, there are halyards to run, spreader lights to run and attach,

And does everybody remember my decision or ordering mistake that left some protrusions inside the mast? Where the screws were too long in the splice? Well, you guys were right. They are too long. And my halyards are very expensive unsheathed dyneema.

So, I think I’m going to use the original halyard exit points above the extension.

This might be a little weird, but I think it’s better to avoid those screws.

So the halyards will be internal up until about 5 feet above the deck, then will come outside the mast and go through their turning blocks toward the plinth/sail control table.

Does anyone have any objection to that plan?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Chotu, I’m with you. I’ve checked our logbooks for the 6 years that we’ve had our cat, which is similar in proportions and performance with your cat. Much of our sailing has been open ocean non-trade wind passages and open coastal.

Mainsail is easy: 50% full, 35% first reef, 12% second reef, 3% third reef (though when you use it, you’re very thankful for a very deep third reef).

Self tacking jib: 85% full, 15% first reef (now equal to staysail as we no longer can reef the jib), 0.3% second reef (equal to storm jib).

Desire for larger genoa: 20% of full jib time. The self tacking jib is under powered under 10 knots TWS, so we need a sail that can go upwind for 3-9 knots TWS (that’s up to 16 knots AWS). We will add this sail as a flat screecher that is not quite twice the size of the self tacking jib (60-65 sqm vs 36 sqm) set from our bow pole and sheeted inside the cap shrouds at 6* angle.

Even if we were to do our rigging from scratch I think we wouldn’t put the genoa/screecher on a permanent forestay, as it’s good to remove that furled sail in moderate winds for a clean luff for the self tacking jib. That is after all the primary working headsail on a performance cat. The only exception is if the area that you will be sailing is consistently under 10 knots TWS - then you’re better off with a larger genoa in place of the self tacking jib. Note that the genoa will need to be reefed at the same time as the mainsail gets its first reef (on a performance cat - a charter-oriented cat can carry a full genoa much longer).

Atlantic Cats are the one example of a performance cat that runs a true solent rig with primary overlapping genoa (though small overlap) and a 2/3 hoist inner self tacking staysail that takes care of business when the genoa reefed is too big.

We already have a gennaker/screecher that is 120 sqm and sheets outside the shrouds to the aft corner with a 10* angle. It can go to 38* AWA, but it generates so much speed that our tacking angle is over 140* TWA! It rocks for reaching in any wind speed and broad reaching in heavier winds. We take it DDW by pulling the tack to the windward bow when we’re too lazy to set a spinnaker or remove the main.

Our symmetric spinnaker is 140 sqm and goes for 100-180* TWA. It flies best with no mainsail at all and makes for effortless downwind progress at 50% TWS. I’m not sure that there’s any need to spend way more money of a para sailor of any flavour - I think their only benefit is holding their shape better in very light wind conditions.

You can disregard advice from any monohull sailor as well as any cat sailor who doesn’t have a performance cat. Performance cats have a different performance profile and their sail wardrobe needs to reflect that profile.
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Old 02-09-2023, 08:15   #416
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Fxykty's data confirms it wouldn't be worth the effort to use the second furler. Especially when you already have the self tacker and wouldn't make it smaller to pair with a second bigger jib. You wouldn't end up using a bigger jib enough to justify the effort.

I don't think any of us were saying you needed to change the rig. Just providing options for how the second furler could be used. Keep in mind that while a cat may fly different sails and at different times than a mono (due to going faster), the basic options for how to carry sails on the rig don't really change.
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Old 02-09-2023, 08:25   #417
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Fxykty's data confirms it wouldn't be worth the effort to use the second furler. Especially when you already have the self tacker and wouldn't make it smaller to pair with a second bigger jib. You wouldn't end up using a bigger jib enough to justify the effort.

I don't think any of us were saying you needed to change the rig. Just providing options for how the second furler could be used. Keep in mind that while a cat may fly different sails and at different times than a mono (due to going faster), the basic options for how to carry sails on the rig don't really change.
Fxykty’s data, which is the norm for almost all performance catamarans, was what I was trying to say but nobody was hearing it.

All in all it’s a bad idea to do otherwise than the way we are doing it.

I will have to agree to disagree that the Catamaran and the Monohull are the same rigging wise. Between the higher speeds (changing apparent wind), 25ft beam and fractional rig, it’s an entirely different species.

I have to say it again. You will be glad I stuck to doing it the right way when you come try it out. Lol. It will be a lot of fun!
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Old 03-09-2023, 06:32   #418
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Spreaders and spreader lights:

Should I have wires outside the mast? There is a big hole by the spreaders. Is that what itís for?

Or should I drill through the spreader attachment doubler and mast inside the spreader holder bracket and try to route wires through there?

AlsoÖ the little holes on the bracket and spreaders. Are those just for drainage? No hardware needed since the shrouds crush the spreaders in there anyway?
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Old 03-09-2023, 06:58   #419
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Spreaders and spreader lights:

Should I have wires outside the mast? There is a big hole by the spreaders. Is that what itís for?

Or should I drill through the spreader attachment doubler and mast inside the spreader holder bracket and try to route wires through there?

AlsoÖ the little holes on the bracket and spreaders. Are those just for drainage? No hardware needed since the shrouds crush the spreaders in there anyway?
Big hole for wiring. Not sure on the rest, I think my spreaders are bolted but most of them have shrouds rather than diamond stays. I have one forward pointing spreader with a diamond stay on the mizzen and it is bolted to the mast.
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Old 03-09-2023, 07:28   #420
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Big hole for wiring. Not sure on the rest, I think my spreaders are bolted but most of them have shrouds rather than diamond stays. I have one forward pointing spreader with a diamond stay on the mizzen and it is bolted to the mast.
OK. I guess it is far enough up that it doesnít look ugly having the wires hanging out at the spreaders running to the lights?


I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist. Despite the fact that no one else who has worked on this boat has been one lol

I guess I will also try to take a look at some boats around here to see what they are doing with that. A little double check.

Iím thinking those are just drainage holes because the spreader canít go anywhere at all given itís a double diamond. It is incredibly tightly squeezed into that slot.
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