Chotu’s Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Finally, even though this is not needed for the standing rigging, I think it’s advisable for me to drop my running rigging items into this thread just to make sure there are no complications. No interactions between the running rigging and standing rigging that could cause a mistake.

Here we have the dyneema for the lashings. 1/4”
Dyneema halyards. Half inch.
A bunch of Stayset or whatever the heck this stuff is. It’s for sheets. And for reefing maybe. Not sure. Could use input on this.
The Harken are the parts that were purchased to do my self tacking blade jib. Not exactly sure how they should be set up and could use some input.
Harken unit three ocean roller Furler for self tacker
And some very very small dyneema I guess? The white stuff? What’s that? 1/8 inch. Maybe that’s to finish off lashings?

The spools seem like double braid poly, however, their patterns do not match anything offered by NE or Samson ropes. Yes, they can be used for sheets and reefing lines, I would just confirm their breaking strength by checking their sizes on the company's catalog.

The small white line does not look like Dyneema, maybe it is, but it looks different.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Knotical

The spools seem like double braid poly, however, their patterns do not match anything offered by NE or Samson ropes. Yes, they can be used for sheets and reefing lines, I would just confirm their breaking strength by checking their sizes on the company's catalog.

The small white line does not look like Dyneema, maybe it is, but it looks different.

Actually, I just was able to find a list. All metric actually. Lol

Much of this was not ordered and I am not getting to it during this round. I will delve deeper into the running rigging after this standing rigging thread.


Sheet - Mainsail Sheet (trianglular sheeting 4:1 and to winch) 140.00 "Novabraid Blue Double Braid 1/2""" White Blue Speck

Sheet - Spinnaker Sheet 258.00 "Novabraid Blue Double Braid 1/2""" White Blue Speck

Control Line - Spinnaker Tack Line 75.00 D2 Racing 10 mm lots of colors

Control Line - Jib Traveller Control Line/Twing 64.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

Control Line - Jib Traveller Control Line/Twing 64.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

Control Line - Leech Reef #1 171.00 Marlow D2 Club - 10 mm lower cost composite line solids- red/blue/black/green

Control Line - Leech Reef #2 131.00 Marlow D2 Club - 10 mm lower cost composite line solids- red/blue/black/green

Control Line - Leech Reef #3
Control Line - Luff Reef #1 148.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

Control Line - Luff Reef #2 108.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

Control Line - Jib Furling Line 150.00 Marlow Matt Braid 10 mm/ or 7/16 Regatta Braid (nice hand) solids - white, red, blue, black

Control Line - Mainsail Outhaul (optional) 4:1 internal boom purchase to the plinth 86.00 Marlow D2 Club - 10 mm lower cost composite line solids- red/blue/black/green
Control Line - Port Side Boom Preventer 80.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

Control Line - Starboard Side Boom Preventer 80.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)
Control Line - Running Backstay Port Side (Shroud redundancy) 50.00 SK-78 9mm solids - red/blue/black/green

Control Line - Running Backstay Starboard (Shroud redundancy) 50.00 SK-78 9mm solids - red/blue/black/green

Control Line - 4:1 Running Backstay Adjusters 100.00 Marlow Braid (polyester) 10 mm lesser expensive dacron line, covered white - color fleck (white, red, blue, green, gold)

[5BTM]

That weld does not look like it was done by a professional.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

That weld does not look like it was done by a professional.

I don’t know. The weld was done in France I think. The rig has already been around the world a bit. It got some kind of fatigue in the weld. That’s where that little crack came from I suppose. Unless of course someone had an accidental gybe and did that.

What do you think about it? Just get it re-welded? Does that sound right?

Can it be fixed?

What should it look like?

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

That weld does not look like it was done by a professional.

The mast step? Maybe yes maybe no but a bit sloppy either way

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I don’t know. The weld was done in France I think. The rig has already been around the world a bit. It got some kind of fatigue in the weld. That’s where that little crack came from I suppose. Unless of course someone had an accidental gybe and did that.

What do you think about it? Just get it re-welded? Does that sound right?

Can it be fixed?

What should it look like?

A row of coin’s spilled over is what it should look like but as important it has to penetrate to merge both parts into one whole

[boatman61]

Chotu.. look up the Wharram rigging lashing methods, they work well and are long lasting just buy quality line.
Mind on the Wharram they tie off on purpose built lashing points but I see no reason why it should not work.
Have you consider using a bow shackle at the chain plates.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

The mast step? Maybe yes maybe no but a bit sloppy either way

I think he’s talking about where the weld cracked. That’s the gooseneck.


I don’t see any problems whatsoever with the mast step. It doesn’t even have welds. But, he has not responded so who knows.

[5BTM]

That oval shaped piece with 4 holes.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Chotu.. look up the Wharram rigging lashing methods, they work well and are long lasting just buy quality line.
Mind on the Wharram they tie off on purpose built lashing points but I see no reason why it should not work.
Have you consider using a bow shackle at the chain plates.

Thanks for that idea to look at the Wharrams. I completely forgot they do this.

I already have the line. It’s 1/4 inch Dyneema. Pre-stretched. Highest quality stuff money can buy.

Here is a picture from looking at some of the Wharrams. This is the exact type of lashing I was looking to do actually. Colligo says to put the wraps at about the 1/3 and 2/3 dividing point rather than at the top like in the Wharram pic. But this is basically it.




Also, just for the thread in general, here are a couple of examples of the same problem being solved on a Neal and another boat:





^^^^^ This picture looks exceptionally good. They have some sort of collar on the pin for the chain plate that allows them to take the lashings right over it. That’s perfect. If I could do that everything would be very simple on that end.



I actually really like those purpose built lashing points on the Wharram. Very cool. Mr Wharram has been an inspiration to me building this boat to keep things simple. He also helped me through a few areas that were tricky on the actual building of the hull.

I’m trying to envision of how the bow shackle would work on the chain plate. Which end would be up with the bow shackle?

Would I do my lashing through the ring side of it? And somehow mate it to something that goes around the pin in the chainplate?

I’m not picturing how that would connect.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

That oval shaped piece with 4 holes.

Ahhh. Ok.

If you look closely at the gooseneck that weld has a problem. This weld doesn’t.

That thing has already been around the world a couple times. No issues.

This piece sits inside the mast. It allows the tube section to mate with the mast step that you can see attached to the deck. it mates through the 2 large pins and 2 of the holes.

Clearly the holes that are there for the bolts and not for the steadying of the mast are pretty poorly cut as well. Lol.

I’ll take a close look at this thing and see if there is any evidence of a problem though. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Chotu]

Weld update: yup. It looks amateur. The cuts of the holes for the bolt heads in the same piece do too.

This piece sits inside the mast. I had not looked at it very much until removing it from the bottom of the mast to extend the mast.

It’s been around the world a couple times on the other boat. I’m not sure if I need to worry about it. Seems pretty solid.

Not sure

[fxykty]

Use catamaran terminology - you don’t have any backstays. You have a cap shroud and a lower shroud and a running backstay on each side, plus a forestay. These are used to keep the mast standing up. Your mast has double spreaders and diamond stays. These are used to keep the mast in column (side to side). As you note, because the spreaders are inline the diamond stays cannot induce nor hold any mast pre-bend.

You’re using ‘Colligo’ the same way people use ‘Frisbee’ and ‘Wind surfer’, so that should be fine. Just don’t apply the Colligo name to specific items that are not sold by Colligo.

I’m thrilled that ‘sell’ was an autocorrect typo. Phew, I’d thought you’d thrown in the towel.

Now some questions and comments:

1) The lower shrouds prevent the mast from bending too much. Is there also a baby stay or similar to keep the mast from inverting?

2) While Wharram lashings are great for getting ideas from, remember that Wharram cats are designed such that everything is flexible and can move. Your cat is not designed like that and will have much higher loads, both static and dynamic. An example of this difference is using open thimbles (Rigging Doctor and Wharram pics) versus using closed thimbles with individual lashing holes in the Neel and other pics. In an open thimble the lashings interfere with each other and you don’t get equal tension, which means they will move under load and cut each other as they try to equalise. In a closed thimble with lashing holes, each lashing has the same tension, which also means you can use fewer turns (more turns is how you compensate for using open thimbles).

3) Your chainplate end fitting is a simple pin - awesome. Do you have space to lead the lashings around that pin? It’s a good thing not to introduce additional hardware if you don’t need to. The only issue is to prevent the lashings from chafing the fibreglass on either end of the pin - perhaps HDPE washers?

4) You may need pay for proper line terminators that will attach to a toggle fork pin at the bottom of each turnbuckle. Something like this: https://www.colligomarine.com/produc...-11-13mm-black (you would need the 15-17mm with 3/4” pin I think). This picture shows a cap shroud Colligo terminator attached to its turnbuckle toggle fork pin on our boat (yours would be the same, but on the other side of the turnbuckle and the terminator would have lashing holes):

5) For leech reefing lines I strongly recommend UHMWPE line (single or double braided your choice). With a non-high modulus line the reefing line will stretch and release with every pump of the sail, resulting in squalling. This produces noise and chafe and is the reason for the recommendation to put a line through the reef cringle and around the boom after putting in a reef. Use a high modulus line and there will be no squalling.

6) I think you wrote that you are moving the big mast plate back to the designed mast foot location. Good. If not, make sure that you do. The foot of the mast must be in exactly the right position or your load supports will not be able to do their jobs.

[s/v Jedi]

I wouldn’t worry about the weld so much.

On the chainplates: that is not a lashing connecting to it… these are Dyneema deadeyes, basically a loop. The ones that go around the pin are simply stuck through the upper fitting so that you have two loops coming down that the pin goes through.

When you need small diameter deadeyes you need to do that rigging doctor trick by re-braiding the Dyneema to create the Brummel lock. For a long loop you can simply bury a much longer tail.

I thought composite chainplates are all able to connect a turnbuckle? Like attached picture…

For strong rings, I just received these 15 metric tons SWL low friction rings… they are beasts and I will test these for my running backstay tails instead of blocks. They are hard anodized aluminum and affordable: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BP21MS1B

[s/v Jedi]

Also, you don’t need lashings. When you extend the turnbuckle to maximum size, then make a Dyneema loop between turnbuckle and chainplate and make it’s length that you can just get it attached, then all you need to do is tighten the turnbuckle.

You can double that loop like in the picture you posted for 4x the strength of the Dyneema rope so I think that will be 35,000lbs or so with 1/4” Dyneema.

When it stretches a bit you can quickly adjust it’s splice but of course you need to pre-stretch these with a winch then tune length and repeat before installing them.