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Old 17-08-2023, 09:38   #256
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Seeing that picture gives me a thought. From a weight distribution and ease of access perspective, would it be better to have the anchor roller on the front of the bridge deck so the anchor comes up behind the cross beam? Or is there not as much space between them as it looks like?
Yes, it is better for weight distribution to bring the anchor back to the bridgedeck, but it makes access to the anchor more difficult due to the net.

Ours is installed on the bridgedeck a good 14+' aft of the bow, but the only access we have is through a small trap door that your hand can barely fit through. Like everything "boat" it's a compromise.
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Old 17-08-2023, 09:55   #257
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Seeing that picture gives me a thought. From a weight distribution and ease of access perspective, would it be better to have the anchor roller on the front of the bridge deck so the anchor comes up behind the cross beam? Or is there not as much space between them as it looks like?

There is plenty of space there. It kind of is an illusion in the picture.

However, it’s not a good place to put the anchor. The reason being is if the anchor chain starts back there, it tears everything up. In practice, the bows get destroyed in that setup by the chain.

Before the Crossbeam, I used to put a piece of dyneema across and a round pipe or tube to hold the anchor (and especially the chain) in place, suspended in the center of the bows. I had tried it from way back on the bridgedeck initially and definitely scraped paint off my bows
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Old 17-08-2023, 10:00   #258
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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There is plenty of space there. It kind of is an illusion in the picture.

However, itís not a good place to put the anchor. The reason being is if the anchor chain starts back there, it tears everything up. In practice, the bows get destroyed in that setup by the chain.

Before the Crossbeam, I used to put a piece of dyneema across and a round pipe or tube to hold the anchor (and especially the chain) in place, suspended in the center of the bows. I had tried it from way back on the bridgedeck initially and definitely scraped paint off my bows
Ah. I was thinking once you had snubbers on and some slack in the chain, there would be nothing pulling it towards the bows. Just a challenge of not getting the boat to an excessive angle during deployment and retrieval.
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Old 17-08-2023, 10:04   #259
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Ah. I was thinking once you had snubbers on and some slack in the chain, there would be nothing pulling it towards the bows. Just a challenge of not getting the boat to an excessive angle during deployment and retrieval.
Yes. Once the snubbers or bridle is in place, no problem. That holds the chain away from the bows.

The boat spends all its time going from side to side, sailing at anchor as you are retrieving the anchor. The chain frequently goes under the bows while you are pulling it in.

And that’s actually a lucky thing, because that helps me be able to use my manual winless in any conditions at all. There is always a point where there is no tension on the chain for a few moments and you can pull some in. As it sails back and forth, you just wait with patience and pull it in when it’s easy.

Also, there is a good amount of contact before you get that bridle on there.

So, yeah, not workable unfortunately
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Old 17-08-2023, 14:47   #260
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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As an aside (there are a LOT of factors in this situation) - the claimed numbers vs real world numbers on dyneema are pretty far off in my experience, due to the lack of pre-loading or pre-stretching of most halyard materials. A couple months ago I loaded up a piece of 12mm amsteel on my load wall, 10mm, 50' length. We took it to 50 lbs and let it sit, then took it slowly up to 1800 lbs, and we saw elongation of roughly 18" on our reference points.
Now when you start to think about the exponential load as the mast rake increases, I'd love to know the calculated loads as the rake increases.
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What you observed is called “constructional stretch”. It isn’t the fibers stretching, but the bundles of fibers aligning in the braid. This is why everything made, from halyard to soft shackle, must be tensioned as part of the build.
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No. It wasn't only constructional elongation (that's what it's called, not constructional stretch).
It seems that you may be under the impression that I am unaware of the line terminology/technology.
This was a combination of elastic stretch, elongation, and creep. There was some return, I don't have that data in front of me right now, but somewhere in the 4" region. When we left it overnight the creep was evident, but hard to measure accurately because I wasn't there to maintain the load.

There's a lot more to the dyneema elongation debate, that has been gone over and over on other forums. Bottom line, the elongation number of 1% is a very approximate reference.
Amsteel 12mm loaded to 1,800lbs is much less than 10% loading (which would be 2,300lbs) so the elastic stretch (you can call it elastic elongation but I try to use simple wording where possible) is 0.46%. For a length of 50’ this is 2.76”

You found 18” elongation instead of 2.76” and explain this as real world numbers vs claimed numbers. This is the same as saying that Samson is misrepresenting with their 0.46% claim as it is much more.

So I comment that what you experienced here is due to constructional stretch, not the elastic stretch.

Then you respond that no, it was a combination of elastic and constructional stretch, as well as creep. Of course, I agree.

You experienced some spring-back. The springback was 2.76” which is the elastic stretch.

The creep you saw was the first phase creep, which will occur for a couple of hours. After that you enter the second phase which too is a couple percent per year. The point is that these creep numbers are at maximum load, while you were under 10 percent, which doesn’t give much creep at all for a 12 hour period. I don’t think you saw more than maybe 4” of phase 1 creep which means the constructional stretch was the vast majority of the 18” you got.

You also claimed this was due to the “lack of pre-loading or pre-stretching of most halyard materials”. Some are pre-stretched and even heat-set to eliminate much of this, but this is a much stiffer rope, more difficult to work with and thus most people prefer to work with Amsteel and do this tensioning themselves.

The point is that of course I do understand these different types of stretch; I tried to explain that the big difference you found between the elastic stretch number from Samson and your experiment was not due to Samson misrepresenting their Amsteel numbers, but because of the constructional stretch which is not included in the published elastic stretch number. The numbers published by Samson are solid and very accurate, which is why they specify it to the 1/100th of one percent. The reason is that Amsteel is used for commercial mooring and lifting which is all highly regulated and tests have been performed hundreds of times and are still being performed regularly in order to keep certification current.

Also, my apologies for mixing up members who are posting here. I thought your post on this test came from Chotu and the one with all the math from you

For people interested in an explanation of creep by Samson: https://samsonrope.com/docs/default-...rsn=1e71fc4e_2

I love Samson because of their complete specs and supporting documents. Compare that to New England ropes, who doesn’t publish anything about stretch for their Staset vs Staset X products.
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Old 17-08-2023, 15:29   #261
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Good lord. Lol.

Jedi, you can always recognize me lately by the Flying Dutchman character as my avatar.

Also that I’m asking questions in this thread and making very few statements. Ha ha ha.

The good news is all the stretch theory won’t be put to the test because I’m just having the crane linger. It’ll be easier that way.

Also I’m wondering what to do about stretch involved with the dyneema loops that I have to make will go from my turnbuckles to the chainplate pins. They will have both types of stretch. I’m concerns the turnbuckles won’t be enough to take that up
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Old 17-08-2023, 15:39   #262
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Martingale stay installed. Took 20 mins since I requested the bushings a little large to get a perfect fit. Ground the OD on them to fit

Congratulations! Progress!!
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Old 17-08-2023, 16:00   #263
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Congratulations! Progress!!
Thank you! Lots of progress today actually. Options for doing the mast preparation ashore have materialized also.

The secret was to get away from marinas. Regular working people were the way to go.

Lots of people have cranes. Even by the water. Marinas are the only place they don’t have that (except inside the travelift wells) oddly enough.

But actually, after looking at enough of them I understand why. Money. There is no reason to leave anything open other than the one little well for the travel lift. Everything else is filled with docks to maximize profits.
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Old 17-08-2023, 16:07   #264
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Getting back to the rig for a moment, how should I handle this creep and stretch in the dyneema for the loops that will hold the shrouds?

They will have both constructional and regular. Although it is pre-stretched SK-78

Iím concerned they might stretch out past the ability of the turnbuckles to manage.

What is pre-stretched SK-78? Do you mean DUX?

In any case, give the loop enough turns so that the expected working load is not more 10% of the loopís breaking strength. Once constructional stretch (elongation?) is removed, the loop will have minimal movement.

As you make the loop, before lock stitching the crossover, tension the loop to remove the constructional stretch. Then lock stitch the crossover and complete the cover if you are going to have a cover.

Install the loop with the turnbuckle fully extended. Tension. If you bottom out, remake the loop, shorter.

If the untensioned loop is too short and doesnít reach the fully extended turnbuckle, just add a temporary loop or soft shackle to extend the loop. Tension the turnbuckle and once the final loop is long enough, undo the turnbuckle, remove the temporary loop/soft shackle, and retension the turnbuckle.
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Old 17-08-2023, 16:20   #265
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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What is pre-stretched SK-78? Do you mean DUX?

In any case, give the loop enough turns so that the expected working load is not more 10% of the loop’s breaking strength. Once constructional stretch (elongation?) is removed, the loop will have minimal movement.

As you make the loop, before lock stitching the crossover, tension the loop to remove the constructional stretch. Then lock stitch the crossover and complete the cover if you are going to have a cover.

Install the loop with the turnbuckle fully extended. Tension. If you bottom out, remake the loop, shorter.

If the untensioned loop is too short and doesn’t reach the fully extended turnbuckle, just add a temporary loop or soft shackle to extend the loop. Tension the turnbuckle and once the final loop is long enough, undo the turnbuckle, remove the temporary loop/soft shackle, and retension the turnbuckle.

Sorry for the terminology. I am trying.

It’s 9 mm, pre-stretched, heat set, SK-78 UHMWPE/dyneema. Exactly this product:

https://californiacordage.com/produc...nt=49679125773

And OK. So some trial and error I guess with the dyneema loops. Hopefully I can just get them right.


Anyone know what percentage of breaking strength I should be shooting for when making the loops?

Edit: whoops. That’s my halyard material. The one for the loops is 6mm of the same product
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Old 17-08-2023, 20:46   #266
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You are right, itís 63.25í and it does increase stretch enormously to 80 - 63.25 = 16.75í which, for a halyard length of 60+65=125í means 13.4% stretch.
You are assuming that the mast falls straight aft. It is (extremely) unlikely to do that. (In part because of what you are saying.)


Quote:
Interesting that you challenge the less than 0.5% stretch of Dyneema, suggesting that boats have lesser line. I think for catamarans Dyneema is mainstream and Chotu has Dyneema as well so then it would be okay with Dyneema?
Dyneema is better, but I thought we were speculating about the incidents described above. Did they have dyneema?


Quote:
Even the most stretchy polyester Samson double braid, at 10% of breaking load only has 1.3% stretch. But looking at your buddyís claim that the halyard was intact, we can take the stretch at full loading which is 3.16%. This means the halyard has stretched less than 4í, far from 16.74í.
Again, assuming the mast falls straight aft.


Quote:
This means the story about intact halyard can not be true. I see you conveniently ignore that conclusion also, you ignore the question on why itís okay to use a halyard as backstay when itís not okay as forestay. Canít the mast fall forward? Not with wind coming from astern either?
The same issues / concerns apply to any stay (or shroud) that is replaced by a halyard.


Quote:
As Iíve stupidly demonstrated, Iím not so good with numbers early in the morning, so Iíll study your math a bit later but yes, I understand that rake only requires a little more forestay length. We have plenty of rake (and pre bend) in our mizzen (see attachment) and change it sometimes depending on sailing upwind or downwind most of the time. Mostly upwind for us, hence the rake.

This whole discussion was triggered by your claim that the mast can come down because the masthead sheaves roll over the halyard while setting rake and that even when the mast foot stays at the mast step, the mast can come all the way down with the halyard intact. Seeing that this requires the halyard to stretch more than 13%, this is physically impossible, which was and is my claim. You say you challenge me on that claim but then ignore the simple impossibility of these numbers by saying most boats donít use Dyneema, so I counter that with the example above using rope that almost nobody uses for halyards anymore. They all use at least low stretch polyester which has 30% less stretch.
I don't think I ever said that. My only point has been that using a halyard in place of a stay is not as secure and discussed some possible reasons why.

Are you familiar with the somewhat common practice of using two halyards (a genoa and a spin) when the forestay is removed? Why would that need to be done?
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Old 18-08-2023, 07:38   #267
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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You are assuming that the mast falls straight aft. It is (extremely) unlikely to do that. (In part because of what you are saying.)

Dyneema is better, but I thought we were speculating about the incidents described above. Did they have dyneema?

Again, assuming the mast falls straight aft.

The same issues / concerns apply to any stay (or shroud) that is replaced by a halyard.

I don't think I ever said that. My only point has been that using a halyard in place of a stay is not as secure and discussed some possible reasons why.

Are you familiar with the somewhat common practice of using two halyards (a genoa and a spin) when the forestay is removed? Why would that need to be done?
Apologies, I wrote the comments thinking I was replying to the rigger

And that after posting the wrong numbers before is double

It was the rigger claiming the mast fell aft, with the foot still on the step (?) because of halyard stretch. I commented this was physically impossible, to which he wrote the mast step broke and the foot jumped forward, to which I responded that this is a great explanation and fully possible, to which he responded that there was another case where the halyard was intact and secured to the winch/cleat, the mast foot still in the step and still the mast fell backwards because the masthead sheaves rolled over the halyard. This was a story heíd been told. So I gave him the number for the amount stretch required for this to happen, which I completely ffíed up as it was twice as much (must have forgotten to clear the calculator) and then you responded but I thought your comment came from the rigger

Of course we were talking about Chotuís mast stepping and setting the rake and Chotu had already reported to have pre-stretched and heat set Dyneema, which basically has no constructional stretch other than for the splices you make.

We use two spinnaker halyards when we remove the forestay: belt and suspenders as well as keeping the mast balanced / not twisted as we have double genoa halyards so no sheave in the center.
But even with the polyester double braid spinnaker halyards, I never worry about stretch allowing the mast to fall backwards; certainly not as I also have a cutter stay

A related story: I sailed a steel 30í boat for 17 years. It had an aluminum deck stepped mast in a tabernacle. We had two steel arms attached to a hinge point at the capshroud chainplates and coming together at the bow chainplate. Not sure of the English term, in Dutch we call these ďmale goat legsĒ hahaha I donít know why ďmaleĒ but okay.
So when we lower the mast, we have these folding gallows that we set at the stern, then we loosen the turnbuckle of the backstay, then we remove the forestay (relying on the baby stay only, but it is slack the the mast is just standing there balanced), we attach the fore stay to the goat legs and a 4:1 block and tackle between chainplate and goat legs. This is from the time it was so-called ďlow stretchĒ 3-strand rope, and I think it was polypropylene which is pretty bad imo.

So then we take off the baby stay and now the mast can be lowered back. But it wonít go. So, as an 18 year old 6í6Ē tall beast, I hang on the slack backstay with all my weight, but the mast wonít come back. The tension of the capshrouds, which are straight at 90 degree spreaders, is enough to keep the mast up. So after loosening those turnbuckles, I hang on the backstay again and in dozens of occasions I could not move the mast. Which meant that my father had to tie off the tackle and come help pull the backstay incl. shock loading it etc. Of course there was plenty of slack in the block and tackle because the combination with forestay and goat legs is at least one foot too long. So the mast starts falling back in free fall until the tackle goes tight.

Well, while it starts to fall backwards, this starts very slowly, like felling a tree, you can see the masthead moving a couple of feet and I can still put my hands on the mast and not just stop it, but push it back. Which meant my father had to come back again to pull the backstay. So there is virtually no forestay tension with the mast raked a couple of feet.

Then the last part of this story: while lowering, easily done by hand with the 4:1 block and tackle, you can stop at any time, even with the mast only a couple inches away from horizontal. Of course the goat legs improve the angle enormously.

So with all that in mind, I just know that Chotu will be able to set his rake with a Dyneema genoa halyard. The problem that I have is that he refuses to install mast winches before stepping the mast, insisting on using a couple of cleats. I already told him I would worry about the lack of control (that is how masts come down or fingers are lost) and would have annoyed him more on the subject if he wouldnít have had a crane to keep it up while doing these things
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Old 18-08-2023, 07:49   #268
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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So with all that in mind, I just know that Chotu will be able to set his rake with a Dyneema genoa halyard. The problem that I have is that he refuses to install mast winches before stepping the mast, insisting on using a couple of cleats. I already told him I would worry about the lack of control (that is how masts come down or fingers are lost) and would have annoyed him more on the subject if he wouldn’t have had a crane to keep it up while doing these things
The only way I’m doing that is if you get up here and do that. Ha ha.

You will need to:

1) develop the complete running rigging plan to make sure your winch positioning works for the rest of the control lines and is well laid out on the plinth
2) build and install the plinth in the salon (massive loads on this)
3) develop, build and install the “dorade box” to keep water out of the salon from where the lines enter
4) plan/install appropriate turning blocks to lead all lines into salon
5) cut holes for lines to come in
6) source and install the constrictors to stop lines after they are off the winch
7) cut halyard exits from mast and make sure no chafe

Ready when you are!

Ha ha ha.

Of course I’m joking with you. But, you can see why I did not go down that path. I would not be able to get the mast up by the time it snows going that route.

Standing rigging first (with crane to hold) then running rigging.

Unfortunately, no sailing until next year
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Old 18-08-2023, 08:12   #269
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Sorry for the terminology. I am trying.

Itís 9 mm, pre-stretched, heat set, SK-78 UHMWPE/dyneema. Exactly this product:

https://californiacordage.com/produc...nt=49679125773

And OK. So some trial and error I guess with the dyneema loops. Hopefully I can just get them right.


Anyone know what percentage of breaking strength I should be shooting for when making the loops?

Edit: whoops. Thatís my halyard material. The one for the loops is 6mm of the same product
You have 14mm shrouds, right? and 9mm pre-stretched, heat set Dyneema? If so, then the Dyneema is almost as strong as the steel according to the tables I found: the wire is at at 13,400 kg and the Dyneema at 12,000 kg.

So one turn would hold the mast up and I recommend to make three turns if that fits the chainplate pin.

But youíll never get the size right before stepping the mast. So hereís what I recommend: estimate the distance. I know you already did that and it was about 4í or so? Cut two pieces of the Dyneema 8 times that distance, i.e. 32í if the span is 4í. Put an eye splice in one end of these and attach them to the shroud turnbuckles. While stepping the mast, make three turns, pull tight and tie the end off around the lashing. Now you have the mast up, tighten the turnbuckes for now.

Later, when the crane is gone and you have time, use the main halyard to replace a shroud, take the length of Dyneema off and make the first loop. Donít even bury the ends, just do the Brummel, tie a seizing around it and fit it; adjust until it looks right(with turnbuckle fully extended) etc. just like fxykty explained.
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Old 18-08-2023, 08:16   #270
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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The only way Iím doing that is if you get up here and do that. Ha ha.

You will need to:

1) develop the complete running rigging plan to make sure your winch positioning works for the rest of the control lines and is well laid out on the plinth
2) build and install the plinth in the salon (massive loads on this)
3) develop, build and install the ďdorade boxĒ to keep water out of the salon from where the lines enter
4) plan/install appropriate turning blocks to lead all lines into salon
5) cut holes for lines to come in
6) source and install the constrictors to stop lines after they are off the winch
7) cut halyard exits from mast and make sure no chafe

Ready when you are!

Ha ha ha.

Of course Iím joking with you. But, you can see why I did not go down that path. I would not be able to get the mast up by the time it snows going that route.

Standing rigging first (with crane to hold) then running rigging.

Unfortunately, no sailing until next year
Ha! I think I get it now, you are not planning to mount winches on the mast at all! Man I donít like that
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