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Old 16-08-2023, 09:30   #241
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Got it!!

Barge crane is a 100% go!

He can linger a few hours and that gives me time to do the Stayloc on the forestay and dyneema connections for the shrouds.

Now I have to do the following:

0) get gooseneck welded
1) install martingale stay
2) install masthead items and wires, spreader lights, halyards, topping lift, etc
3) connect forestay and assemble furler over forestay
4) put together diamond stays (very tricky because they don’t fit well until the mast is lifted. They will break things on the boat if installed before lifting)
5) make 4 Dyneema loops for the 4 shrouds
6) attach shrouds to mast
7) secure mast base plate into mast (this is an oval plate that interfaces with the mast step)
8) uninstall and reinstall mast step since the dope put it in the wrong place. I know why he did this. It is too hard to reach if it goes in the right place and he was too lazy to do it right.
9) get sheave pins secured in place. They used to have stainless pieces screwed over them to keep them in the slots. Those are gone now. Guess he didn’t get them back onboard. Have to find a way to secure them since he left them loose and they can just fall out.
10) cut holes in mast at base for wire and halyard exits.

Hopefully that should be it. Is there anything obvious I am missing?

Note: also there is no hope of sailing anywhere this fall so I’ll have to get the boat ready for winter too
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Old 16-08-2023, 09:51   #242
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

So, what is this lower part of my gooseneck? It seems a bit useless.

What is the part in the blue circle for?

To me, it looks like it takes up some of the torque on the tabs that are welded to the mast to hold the gooseneck.

But it also has that bolt at the bottom. What would connect to that?

This is the piece that has the crack in the weld. It doesn’t seem all that necessary. Maybe I could at least get all of this together first and then get it welded later or something when I am in for the winter.

The crack in the weld is in the area where the blue line of the blue circle cuts through the welds. It’s on the left most weld that is closest to the Mast in the picture.




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Old 16-08-2023, 09:56   #243
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
So, what is this lower part of my gooseneck? It seems a bit useless.

What is the part in the blue circle for?

To me, it looks like it takes up some of the torque on the tabs that are welded to the mast to hold the gooseneck.

But it also has that bolt at the bottom. What would connect to that?

This is the piece that has the crack in the weld. It doesnít seem all that necessary. Maybe I could at least get all of this together first and then get it welded later or something when I am in for the winter.

The crack in the weld is in the area where the blue line of the blue circle cuts through the welds. Itís on the left most weld that is closest to the Mast in the picture.




Are you sure that't not the TOP of the gooseneck, and therefore the tack fitting for the mainsail?
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Old 16-08-2023, 10:19   #244
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger View Post
Are you sure that't not the TOP of the gooseneck, and therefore the tack fitting for the mainsail?
Severe embarrassment brewing. Ha ha ha.

Could be!! I haven’t seen how the sail attaches yet.

I’m sure you’re right. Thank you!

Edit: there is just a track on the boom, so yup, looks like you’re right!


Certainly I don’t need to get this welded yet. I won’t be doing any sailing because I won’t have any running rigging yet. So this should be fine. I’m going to proceed to stick the boom on there and just hold it in place so it’s out-of-the-way.
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Old 16-08-2023, 13:21   #245
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Severe embarrassment brewing. Ha ha ha.

Could be!! I havenít seen how the sail attaches yet.

Iím sure youíre right. Thank you!

Edit: there is just a track on the boom, so yup, looks like youíre right!


Certainly I donít need to get this welded yet. I wonít be doing any sailing because I wonít have any running rigging yet. So this should be fine. Iím going to proceed to stick the boom on there and just hold it in place so itís out-of-the-way.
Sounds like a plan.
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Old 16-08-2023, 13:23   #246
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

The Yacht Rigger martingale stay unboxing!

Everything feels like nice high-quality stuff. I have to say I am pretty impressed that they even included a couple of cotter pins. I don’t have to track any down. As someone always at anchor, that’s really helpful. Thank you.

Package includes:

*1x19 wire swaged to appropriate toggles
*turnbuckle
*all necessary pins, including cotter pins
*acetal bushings to keep the stainless pins off the aluminum


Upon initial inspection, everything looks right. I will probably install this tomorrow.

Admission: after everything that I have been through with the vendors, I expected it to show up without pins, definitely no cotter pins and probably the wrong size. Lolol. It’s very exciting to get something that was done well.
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Old 16-08-2023, 13:42   #247
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
The Yacht Rigger martingale stay unboxing!

Everything feels like nice high-quality stuff. I have to say I am pretty impressed that they even included a couple of cotter pins. I donít have to track any down. As someone always at anchor, thatís really helpful. Thank you.

Package includes:

*1x19 wire swaged to appropriate toggles
*turnbuckle
*all necessary pins, including cotter pins
*acetal bushings to keep the stainless pins off the aluminum


Upon initial inspection, everything looks right. I will probably install this tomorrow.

Admission: after everything that I have been through with the vendors, I expected it to show up without pins, definitely no cotter pins and probably the wrong size. Lolol. Itís very exciting to get something that was done well.
Glad it all made it after the "almost" shipping fiasco!
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Old 16-08-2023, 22:59   #248
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Sorry, Nick, but I'm going to have to challenge you on this one...


Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Example: I = 60í and J = 20í. Those are reasonable numbers for many yachts, rounded for easy math.

The forestay is therefor 72í (Pythagoras)
I get 63.25'.


Quote:
When the mast is down, the distance between these two points is 60 + 20 = 80í.

So that ďlittle stretchĒ is 8í of stretch. So yes, when you use paracord instead of a Dyneema halyard then I can believe it. The halyard is 60 + 72 = 132í so 8í stretch is 6% stretch.
So the stretch would actually be more than twice that, but it doesn't matter - the bad stuff would have happened long before that point.


Quote:
The thing is that Dyneema stretches less than 1% at 30% breaking load. Even under half the weight of the mast, which only happens halfway coming down, you are far below 0.5% stretch.
I would posit that most cruising monohulls do not have dyneema halyards. Mine doesn't (came with boat). Yours might. More race boats do (my 38' race did, my 25' race boat before that did not). More catamarans probably do. I don't think we know what type of halyard was on the boats referenced above which had their mast issues.


Quote:
So those stories, if true and letís assume it really happened, were not with actual halyards but with a piece of string that was used as a halyard.

Now if the mast step breaks and the foot of the mast jumps forward, then yes, this wil happen but in that case it will also happen with a steel forestay attached.

Then a detail that bothers me enough to address it: you wrote ďyou only need to go a little too far with setting rake for it to triggerĒ. But when you set rake, you have a plump bob hanging down from the masthead so you can measure the distance between the back of the mast and the plump bob, so that you know the rake. While you do that, the halyard is already stretching. You tension the main halyard in itís backstay role (why would you use a halyard there but not as forestay?!) then slowly give a little genoa halyard to increase rake.

There is one more possibility: the genoa halyard wasnít tightened, or someone was feeding it to get more rake while noone was pulling on the backstay, with the mast just balancing, then suddenly falling backwards as there is lots of slack in the genoa halyard.

You will never know because they will never admit to the mistakes they made, but nowyou can show them that their stories require 8í stretch
I'm not going to get into any specific case that we don't have sufficient details for. But I would like to point out some geometry of rake and forestay (halyard) length and the "sensitivity" between them.

Consider the same mast above, but add 0.5' of rake; what is the new length of the forestay? Let the rake be "x", the new height be "y" and the new forestay length be "z" - see dashed in diagram (solid is original vertical mast).

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Using Pythagoras, with mast as hypotenuse and rake (x) and height (y) as the legs:
y = sqrt(60^2 - x^2) = sqrt(60^2 - 0.5^2) = 60.00

And again with forestay (or halyard) as hypotenuse and rake + "J" and height as legs:
z = sqrt(y^2 + (J+x)^2) = sqrt(60^2 + (20+0.5)^2) = 63.40'

So the initial half foot of rake only took an increase of 0.15' in forestay.


Now let's look at what happens when the forestay length changes by an additional 1.2' (this could be a length adjustment or maybe 1% of stretch in the ~120' halyard length, doesn't really matter). Thus the new length is 64.6'. And Pythagoras again with new forestay length as hypotenuse and rake + "J" and height as legs (this one takes some steps):
(x+20)^2 + y^2 = 64.60^2
x^2 + 40x + 400 + y^2 = 64.6^2
40(x+10) + (x^2 + y^2) = 64.6^2
40(x+10) + 60^2 = 64.6^2
40(x+10) = 64.6^2 - 60^2 = 573.16
x+10 = 573.16/40 = 14.33
x = 4.33'

The conclusion (point) is that a given change in forestay length results in >3x change in rake.


In most cases, when proper procedures and precautions are followed, a halyard can be used to support a mast without incident. It does, however, provide less support than a proper stay, and therefore is less secure and LESS FORGIVING when Murphy shows up. If you have a keel-stepped mast (properly secured at the base and partners) then you have less to worry about than with deck-stepped. If you have a stronger mast, as with a cruiser or a larger boat, you have less to worry about. But if you are deck-stepped and have a smaller boat, or a racing boat with a bendier mast, then proceed with care.
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Old 17-08-2023, 05:36   #249
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Jerry View Post
Sorry, Nick, but I'm going to have to challenge you on this one...




I get 63.25'.




So the stretch would actually be more than twice that, but it doesn't matter - the bad stuff would have happened long before that point.




I would posit that most cruising monohulls do not have dyneema halyards. Mine doesn't (came with boat). Yours might. More race boats do (my 38' race did, my 25' race boat before that did not). More catamarans probably do. I don't think we know what type of halyard was on the boats referenced above which had their mast issues.




I'm not going to get into any specific case that we don't have sufficient details for. But I would like to point out some geometry of rake and forestay (halyard) length and the "sensitivity" between them.

Consider the same mast above, but add 0.5' of rake; what is the new length of the forestay? Let the rake be "x", the new height be "y" and the new forestay length be "z" - see dashed in diagram (solid is original vertical mast).
Attachment 279705
Using Pythagoras, with mast as hypotenuse and rake (x) and height (y) as the legs:
y = sqrt(60^2 - x^2) = sqrt(60^2 - 0.5^2) = 60.00

And again with forestay (or halyard) as hypotenuse and rake + "J" and height as legs:
z = sqrt(y^2 + (J+x)^2) = sqrt(60^2 + (20+0.5)^2) = 63.40'

So the initial half foot of rake only took an increase of 0.15' in forestay.


Now let's look at what happens when the forestay length changes by an additional 1.2' (this could be a length adjustment or maybe 1% of stretch in the ~120' halyard length, doesn't really matter). Thus the new length is 64.6'. And Pythagoras again with new forestay length as hypotenuse and rake + "J" and height as legs (this one takes some steps):
(x+20)^2 + y^2 = 64.60^2
x^2 + 40x + 400 + y^2 = 64.6^2
40(x+10) + (x^2 + y^2) = 64.6^2
40(x+10) + 60^2 = 64.6^2
40(x+10) = 64.6^2 - 60^2 = 573.16
x+10 = 573.16/40 = 14.33
x = 4.33'

The conclusion (point) is that a given change in forestay length results in >3x change in rake.


In most cases, when proper procedures and precautions are followed, a halyard can be used to support a mast without incident. It does, however, provide less support than a proper stay, and therefore is less secure and LESS FORGIVING when Murphy shows up. If you have a keel-stepped mast (properly secured at the base and partners) then you have less to worry about than with deck-stepped. If you have a stronger mast, as with a cruiser or a larger boat, you have less to worry about. But if you are deck-stepped and have a smaller boat, or a racing boat with a bendier mast, then proceed with care.
As an aside (there are a LOT of factors in this situation) - the claimed numbers vs real world numbers on dyneema are pretty far off in my experience, due to the lack of pre-loading or pre-stretching of most halyard materials. A couple months ago I loaded up a piece of 12mm amsteel on my load wall, 10mm, 50' length. We took it to 50 lbs and let it sit, then took it slowly up to 1800 lbs, and we saw elongation of roughly 18" on our reference points.
Now when you start to think about the exponential load as the mast rake increases, I'd love to know the calculated loads as the rake increases.
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Old 17-08-2023, 06:33   #250
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger View Post
As an aside (there are a LOT of factors in this situation) - the claimed numbers vs real world numbers on dyneema are pretty far off in my experience, due to the lack of pre-loading or pre-stretching of most halyard materials. A couple months ago I loaded up a piece of 12mm amsteel on my load wall, 10mm, 50' length. We took it to 50 lbs and let it sit, then took it slowly up to 1800 lbs, and we saw elongation of roughly 18" on our reference points.
Now when you start to think about the exponential load as the mast rake increases, I'd love to know the calculated loads as the rake increases.
What you observed is called ďconstructional stretchĒ. It isnít the fibers stretching, but the bundles of fibers aligning in the braid. This is why everything made, from halyard to soft shackle, must be tensioned as part of the build.
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Old 17-08-2023, 06:46   #251
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
What you observed is called ďconstructional stretchĒ. It isnít the fibers stretching, but the bundles of fibers aligning in the braid. This is why everything made, from halyard to soft shackle, must be tensioned as part of the build.
No. It wasn't only constructional elongation (that's what it's called, not constructional stretch).
It seems that you may be under the impression that I am unaware of the line terminology/technology.
This was a combination of elastic stretch, elongation, and creep. There was some return, I don't have that data in front of me right now, but somewhere in the 4" region. When we left it overnight the creep was evident, but hard to measure accurately because I wasn't there to maintain the load.

There's a lot more to the dyneema elongation debate, that has been gone over and over on other forums. Bottom line, the elongation number of 1% is a very approximate reference.
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Old 17-08-2023, 06:52   #252
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Getting back to the rig for a moment, how should I handle this creep and stretch in the dyneema for the loops that will hold the shrouds?

They will have both constructional and regular. Although it is pre-stretched SK-78

I’m concerned they might stretch out past the ability of the turnbuckles to manage.
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Old 17-08-2023, 07:20   #253
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Jerry View Post
Sorry, Nick, but I'm going to have to challenge you on this one...

I get 63.25'.

So the stretch would actually be more than twice that, but it doesn't matter - the bad stuff would have happened long before that point.

I would posit that most cruising monohulls do not have dyneema halyards. Mine doesn't (came with boat). Yours might. More race boats do (my 38' race did, my 25' race boat before that did not). More catamarans probably do. I don't think we know what type of halyard was on the boats referenced above which had their mast issues.
You are right, itís 63.25í and it does increase stretch enormously to 80 - 63.25 = 16.75í which, for a halyard length of 60+65=125í means 13.4% stretch.

Interesting that you challenge the less than 0.5% stretch of Dyneema, suggesting that boats have lesser line. I think for catamarans Dyneema is mainstream and Chotu has Dyneema as well so then it would be okay with Dyneema?

Even the most stretchy polyester Samson double braid, at 10% of breaking load only has 1.3% stretch. But looking at your buddyís claim that the halyard was intact, we can take the stretch at full loading which is 3.16%. This means the halyard has stretched less than 4í, far from 16.74í.

This means the story about intact halyard can not be true. I see you conveniently ignore that conclusion also, you ignore the question on why itís okay to use a halyard as backstay when itís not okay as forestay. Canít the mast fall forward? Not with wind coming from astern either?

As Iíve stupidly demonstrated, Iím not so good with numbers early in the morning, so Iíll study your math a bit later but yes, I understand that rake only requires a little more forestay length. We have plenty of rake (and pre bend) in our mizzen (see attachment) and change it sometimes depending on sailing upwind or downwind most of the time. Mostly upwind for us, hence the rake.

This whole discussion was triggered by your claim that the mast can come down because the masthead sheaves roll over the halyard while setting rake and that even when the mast foot stays at the mast step, the mast can come all the way down with the halyard intact. Seeing that this requires the halyard to stretch more than 13%, this is physically impossible, which was and is my claim. You say you challenge me on that claim but then ignore the simple impossibility of these numbers by saying most boats donít use Dyneema, so I counter that with the example above using rope that almost nobody uses for halyards anymore. They all use at least low stretch polyester which has 30% less stretch.
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Old 17-08-2023, 09:22   #254
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Martingale stay installed. Took 20 mins since I requested the bushings a little large to get a perfect fit. Ground the OD on them to fit
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Old 17-08-2023, 09:25   #255
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Seeing that picture gives me a thought. From a weight distribution and ease of access perspective, would it be better to have the anchor roller on the front of the bridge deck so the anchor comes up behind the cross beam? Or is there not as much space between them as it looks like?
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