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Old 27-07-2023, 19:07   #136
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Indeed. I did some calculations in 2004 and found that mechanical fittings done DIY earn themselves back during the next rig replacement. And the turnbuckle, forks etc. are all the same.
I'm the guy that gets to replace the rig when the 25 year old re-used mechanical fitting fails... and they do. Toggles snap. Studs break at the neck. Eyes break at the loaded end.

Mechanicals are not designed for re-use - they are designed for field use without a swage machine, but after 15 years or so they are just as risky to sail with as swage fittings. Stainless - "stains less" - it's not stain proof.
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Old 27-07-2023, 19:10   #137
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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True. This is actually my forever boat. Finally. After six of them. This one has everything I need and everything I want. So being able to change my own rigging will be handy in the future. I plan to keep this a very long time.

And honestly I was going to send those measurements off to the yacht Rigger to see about pricing which would probably be less.

But I kind of want to practice on this and get self-sufficient with rigging in general.

So Iím going to spend a little extra and buy those sta-locks and enjoy the process.

God knows all of this is a lot easier than playing with epoxy (or the esters) and Fiberglass lol this is the stuff I have been looking forward to
I can quote you with mechanical Blue Wave fittings - just like sta-lok or Hayn, WAY cheaper than Hayn, similar price point to sta-lok, but easier to install than both (they are Norseman style, so much deeper bury on the wedge than sta-lok). But again, you're just paying a premium for the mechanical fittings because they are harder and more complicated to manufacture. Swage fittings - if of sufficient quality, are good for many years (10+), and MUCH cheaper.
Send me the dims and I'll quote it both ways - stephen@theyachtrigger.com
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Old 27-07-2023, 19:21   #138
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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For anyone reading along here that was struggling a bit with understanding how my standing rigging is on the mast, take a look at this video.

At 5:40 in the video you can clearly see the same type of rig on this gunboat as it tacks. They only have a single diamond. I have a double diamond. But take a look at where shrouds are in relation to the diamond.

This should make it a lot more clear.

Notice a single diamond means a single set of spreaders




Question: Why is the self tacking Solent on a straight track??? Looks like a VERY easy install doing that.

Regarding Allegra, donít compare a new carbon mast with an old aluminium mast. Whether a particular mast requires single inline diamonds or double/triple tripod diamonds with swept back spreaders and a forward bar is material agnostic and totally up to the design. In general, carbon masts are designed and built to require none or minimal spreader and stay support of the column. Aluminium masts need to be relatively large/heavy to allow for minimal spreader and stay support of the column, so you usually see older ones with lots of spreaders and stays.

A straight track is much easier to install. It does need independent traveler lines to move the car properly. By the time you get to the end of a curved track youíll need an out and down haul for the clew anyway, so why bother with the extra cost and complexity of a curved track? Theyíre only really useful if youíre tweaking your upwind jib lead angle - generally not necessary on a cat.
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Old 27-07-2023, 19:29   #139
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I'm the guy that gets to replace the rig when the 25 year old re-used mechanical fitting fails... and they do. Toggles snap. Studs break at the neck. Eyes break at the loaded end.

Mechanicals are not designed for re-use - they are designed for field use without a swage machine, but after 15 years or so they are just as risky to sail with as swage fittings. Stainless - "stains less" - it's not stain proof.
Iím the guy re-using his Norseman fittings over and over and they are still as good as new. Will be 30 years next year.

When you need to replace a toggle then you need to replace it. But for good cruising boats everything is over dimensioned so failures are rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger View Post
I can quote you with mechanical Blue Wave fittings - just like sta-lok or Hayn, WAY cheaper than Hayn, similar price point to sta-lok, but easier to install than both (they are Norseman style, so much deeper bury on the wedge than sta-lok). But again, you're just paying a premium for the mechanical fittings because they are harder and more complicated to manufacture. Swage fittings - if of sufficient quality, are good for many years (10+), and MUCH cheaper.
Send me the dims and I'll quote it both ways - stephen@theyachtrigger.com
I have seen many tests and reviews but never with Blue Wave fittings. Why donít you sell the big names?
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Old 27-07-2023, 19:45   #140
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Regarding Allegra, don’t compare a new carbon mast with an old aluminium mast. Whether a particular mast requires single inline diamonds or double/triple tripod diamonds with swept back spreaders and a forward bar is material agnostic and totally up to the design. In general, carbon masts are designed and built to require none or minimal spreader and stay support of the column. Aluminium masts need to be relatively large/heavy to allow for minimal spreader and stay support of the column, so you usually see older ones with lots of spreaders and stays.

A straight track is much easier to install. It does need independent traveler lines to move the car properly. By the time you get to the end of a curved track you’ll need an out and down haul for the clew anyway, so why bother with the extra cost and complexity of a curved track? They’re only really useful if you’re tweaking your upwind jib lead angle - generally not necessary on a cat.

I wasn’t?

There was just a moment in that video where you could see the configuration that people were confused on here. That’s it. Not sure where you just got all that from.

At 5:40 you can see shrouds not attached to spreaders. In this thread people were thinking that the shrouds go over the spreaders and then attach to the chain plate. This video is an excellent opportunity for them to see how this works as that boat was going through a tack.

Really not sure where that first paragraph comes from lol

But with the second paragraph, that would be so much nicer to install. Certainly going to look hard at that. Thanks for the input there
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Old 28-07-2023, 04:20   #141
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I’m the guy re-using his Norseman fittings over and over and they are still as good as new. Will be 30 years next year.

When you need to replace a toggle then you need to replace it. But for good cruising boats everything is over dimensioned so failures are rare.



I have seen many tests and reviews but never with Blue Wave fittings. Why don’t you sell the big names?
I hear you on reusing them, but anecdotal evidence is.... anecdotal. I agree it's rare to see a failure, but when it happens it's a really really bad day for most boat owners.

RE Blue Wave, they are very popular everywhere else in the world (90 year old family owned Danish company), well, the other major markets, Europe and Australia - they've just never established their name here in the US or had a good distributor. More and more major manufacturers are using them as OEM now - and we really like the quality/price point, so we committed to act as the US distributor. I still have some sta-lok parts on the shelf - but likely not for long as we build the BW inventory.
They also add custom parts to their inventory as we come up with new ideas, so really nice to have engineers and manufacturing at our disposal for making new ideas happen pretty quickly.
Hopefully you start seeing more and more of it. We have about 25 riggers across the country using it already. Some pretty big ones.

Their synthetic fitting line is really cool too.. that's what brings us a lot of new customers - nobody makes anything like it really.
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Old 28-07-2023, 06:18   #142
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger View Post
I hear you on reusing them, but anecdotal evidence is.... anecdotal. I agree it's rare to see a failure, but when it happens it's a really really bad day for most boat owners.

RE Blue Wave, they are very popular everywhere else in the world (90 year old family owned Danish company), well, the other major markets, Europe and Australia - they've just never established their name here in the US or had a good distributor. More and more major manufacturers are using them as OEM now - and we really like the quality/price point, so we committed to act as the US distributor. I still have some sta-lok parts on the shelf - but likely not for long as we build the BW inventory.
They also add custom parts to their inventory as we come up with new ideas, so really nice to have engineers and manufacturing at our disposal for making new ideas happen pretty quickly.
Hopefully you start seeing more and more of it. We have about 25 riggers across the country using it already. Some pretty big ones.

Their synthetic fitting line is really cool too.. that's what brings us a lot of new customers - nobody makes anything like it really.
I am not making the reusability of these fitting up, it is what the manufacturers themselves state:

Stalok:
Quote:
The Sta-Lok self-fit terminal will work under constant loading and variable shock loading. The termination is stronger than the rated breaking load of the wire rope. In all situations, the Sta-Lok terminal has proven to be totally reliable and re-usable*.
Hayn even claims the cone and crown ring are reusable:
Quote:
Produced by Petersen Stainless in the UK and distributed exclusively by Hayn Enterprises in the USA, the Hi-MOD mechanical terminal is the latest approach in swageless fittings. The terminal design includes a unique crown ring that arranges the wire strands for even spacing around the fitting. This allows each strand to experience the load equally. The design also eliminates the need to bend the wires around the cone, which ensures the cone is in the proper location, and keeps the strands from dropping into the cone slots. These advantages, combined with a longer cone with a more shallow angle, give you the most secure and efficient swageless terminal on the market today. Both the cone and crown ring are fully re-usable allowing for easy inspection and re-use without having to replace anything.
Does Blue Wave state that their fittings are not to be reused? If they are more affordable than Stalok I will surely consider them if they are reusable.

I did some quick searches that came up with info saying their terminals reduce breaking strength of the wire by 15% and also that they require retightening after the first dynamic loading?! I did not find that in the current catalog, can you confirm if this is still the case with current terminals (that info was from 2011)

Are these the same as Suncor terminals?

I am Dutch but refitting boats there was a long time ago for meÖ it was all Gibb then.
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Old 28-07-2023, 06:27   #143
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

For the sake of the thread I am putting my measurements in the thread. I will also send them privately to the yacht Rigger.

Center of pin to center of pin over the cathedral (the martingale stay) is a surprisingly exact 207in.

Tang thickness on either side that jaws have to clear is 3/4”

Hole in tang is 1”. Pins on 3/8” 1x19 stainless wire are 5/8”. My tangs are expecting bushings which I had made up in Delrin and misplaced as of now. So I need some bushings also with OD to slide into 1” hole and ID to fit the pins.
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Old 28-07-2023, 08:28   #144
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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I am not making the reusability of these fitting up, it is what the manufacturers themselves state:

Stalok:


Hayn even claims the cone and crown ring are reusable:


Does Blue Wave state that their fittings are not to be reused? If they are more affordable than Stalok I will surely consider them if they are reusable.

I did some quick searches that came up with info saying their terminals reduce breaking strength of the wire by 15% and also that they require retightening after the first dynamic loading?! I did not find that in the current catalog, can you confirm if this is still the case with current terminals (that info was from 2011)

Are these the same as Suncor terminals?

I am Dutch but refitting boats there was a long time ago for meÖ it was all Gibb then.
Reuseable yes, but they still have a safe working life. Does either Hayn or sta-lok make a statement regarding unlimited life? I have reused them in the past, when they are sub 15 years old. So if wire gets damaged, or something of that nature, perfectly reusable. Same for Blue Wave.

I think your research may be regarding the architectural type fittings, with external sleeves that go on the outside of the wire, not under the first layer. The marine ones do not require tightening after the first use. They are stronger than the wire when pulled to failure.
NOT the same as Suncor.
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Old 28-07-2023, 08:52   #145
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Reuseable yes, but they still have a safe working life. Does either Hayn or sta-lok make a statement regarding unlimited life? I have reused them in the past, when they are sub 15 years old. So if wire gets damaged, or something of that nature, perfectly reusable. Same for Blue Wave.

I think your research may be regarding the architectural type fittings, with external sleeves that go on the outside of the wire, not under the first layer. The marine ones do not require tightening after the first use. They are stronger than the wire when pulled to failure.
NOT the same as Suncor.
Okay, I consider my Norseman fittings the same as turnbuckles: if they work 100% and have no damage, no cracks etc. then they can be safely reused. There is no calendar aging like for plastic or rubber parts. I expect damage to be occurring more often with mass production boats that get rigging at the absolute minimum requirements to save on production costs.

Yes, there has been confusion about architectural and also lifeline fittings. I am going to buy a number of fittings in the future, replacing upper swage fittings with mechanical fittings and will consider Blue Wave.
I read some tests and reviews of fittings in an online publication like Practical Sailor with interesting results. I donít remember if Blue Wave was in that test? If not, as distributor, you may want to offer to partake in a test to get more attention, present yourself as the US distributor and introduce these fittings in the US. It is very reassuring for cruisers to see destructive testing done on items like these.
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Old 28-07-2023, 12:11   #146
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Okay, I consider my Norseman fittings the same as turnbuckles: if they work 100% and have no damage, no cracks etc. then they can be safely reused. There is no calendar aging like for plastic or rubber parts. I expect damage to be occurring more often with mass production boats that get rigging at the absolute minimum requirements to save on production costs.

Yes, there has been confusion about architectural and also lifeline fittings. I am going to buy a number of fittings in the future, replacing upper swage fittings with mechanical fittings and will consider Blue Wave.
I read some tests and reviews of fittings in an online publication like Practical Sailor with interesting results. I donít remember if Blue Wave was in that test? If not, as distributor, you may want to offer to partake in a test to get more attention, present yourself as the US distributor and introduce these fittings in the US. It is very reassuring for cruisers to see destructive testing done on items like these.
Thanks, yes we are definitely going to get into that space soon, right now honestly we're just struggling to keep up with demand. The other riggers have really been liking the product - a good problem to have!
Thankfully Blue Wave has tons of destructive in house testing data, we just need to do a better job of presenting it to our market. Appreciate the feedback.
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Old 28-07-2023, 12:16   #147
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Easy on The Yacht Rigger. You are distracting him from my quote I'm waiting for! Ha ha ha
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Old 28-07-2023, 12:34   #148
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

Hahaha! I'm doing all this between tasks on a MASSIVE upgrade project on a Leopard 50.
Amongst all the other smaller projects we have going on.

Estimate is emailed.
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Old 28-07-2023, 13:21   #149
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Thanks, yes we are definitely going to get into that space soon, right now honestly we're just struggling to keep up with demand. The other riggers have really been liking the product - a good problem to have!
Thankfully Blue Wave has tons of destructive in house testing data, we just need to do a better job of presenting it to our market. Appreciate the feedback.
Yes of course they have that data; they must prove the product before marketing it, but I am talking about comparative independent testing

Is there a website where we can see pricing for these fittings?
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Old 28-07-2023, 14:53   #150
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Re: Chotuís Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

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Hahaha! I'm doing all this between tasks on a MASSIVE upgrade project on a Leopard 50.
Amongst all the other smaller projects we have going on.

Estimate is emailed.
Ah. Coming in to get on the forum to take a break. The heat must be brutal down there today.

I got the estimate. I am looking at it and deciding how to proceed.
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