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Old 06-04-2020, 17:33   #1
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Cable-less Code O?

North, Quantum and Doyle are offering "cable-less" Code Os. Do any of you have one? Which one? Please advise on usage, ease of use, size boat, sail size, furler or non-furler, and anything else that would inform a prospective purchaser.
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Old 06-04-2020, 18:01   #2
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

Don’t understand cable less? My code zero has no cable, it of course does have a rope it furls around Dynema I believe, did they used to use cable?
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Old 06-04-2020, 18:11   #3
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

An interesting concept, haven’t ever seen one. Doyle’s description is here for others who are in the same boat. Would be nice to have a sail that opens up the angles further, down to where the asym goes up.
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Old 06-04-2020, 20:22   #4
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

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Originally Posted by silversailor View Post
North, Quantum and Doyle are offering "cable-less" Code Os. Do any of you have one? Which one? Please advise on usage, ease of use, size boat, sail size, furler or non-furler, and anything else that would inform a prospective purchaser.

Given the sail material needed to have the load carrying capacity of a typical Dyneema or PBO torsion cable without that cable, very expensive. The Doyle link shows their use on large racing boats, so certainly capable of handling smaller cruising boats. But given the cost, worth it for cruising? The sail will still be cut relatively flat so you will still need a fat asymmetric or symmetric for deep downwind.
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Old 06-04-2020, 21:35   #5
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

My code zero or screeched has no cable, just a fabric type of material the sails twist around it. It only lasted 4 years and next one will be not be made of laminate as it just get eaten fast by the sun even with sun strips
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Old 11-04-2020, 07:36   #6
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

Generally code zeros had a anti-torsion rope or "cable" in the luff although some older sails have regular rope, webbing or even wire. The primary reason the cabless sail was invented was to allow the luff to project to windward and meet the IRC girth rules for downwind race sails. So these sails are laminates with a lot of extra fiber content in the luff to componsiate for not having a rope and project to windward. Of course once they sell it to as many racing sails as they can, then they start marketing it for cruising.. But for cruising there are no girth restrictions to worry about, often fabric durability outweighs performance and you want the tightest furl to avoid the middle blowing out. There is a argument that they don't require as much haylard load, but again that is racing based and most cruisers are not highly loading the luff rope.
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Old 24-04-2020, 12:10   #7
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

Spoke with a designer at Doyle Sails NZ recently, as we need a new staysail and are considering replacing the rest of our sails over the next few years. Doyle developed and has been using structured luffs (cableless) sails for both downwind and now upwind.

Apparently the IMOCA 60s and the large offshore trimarans are particularly suited for these sails as they require much less halyard tension and reduce head stay sag to almost zero. The furl is much tighter as well as there is no cable volume, which helps their efficiency when they have two or three furled sails in close proximity. And they’re considerably lighter.

For cruising, anyone who wants molded sails (Doyle Stratis, North 3Di, etc) certainly should consider structured luff sails for gennakers and jibs (even with a forestay, the structured luff reduces headstay sag and maintains a flatter sail). For mast-furling mains the structured luff reduces weight and volume inside the mast.

Regarding UV damage, two solutions regardless of the sail material. First, remove the furled sail when you don’t need it. Second, if you can’t or don’t want to remove, then put anti-UV strips along the leech and foot. Adds some weight to light sails, which is why these strips are often left off of gennakers and code type sails.

Of course, even if the longevity of molded sails comes close to matching cheaper materials, the cost per sail over time will be higher. To what cost performance?
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Old 24-04-2020, 12:34   #8
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

Ref the UV strip, for a cruising boat absolutely have it, or otherwise it needs to come down as soon as it’s furled, with the strip you can leave it up limited times, my rule is if we are staying somewhere more than two days, it comes down.
I really waffled about buying a code zero, but after having it for a couple of years I can tell you that I use it far more often than my Genoa, and my Genoa is in the loft right now being cut down from 135 to 110, as with the Zero, you don’t need a big Genoa and the 110 goes to windward better and is a better high wind sail.

But if the apparent wind is anywhere from 40 degrees either side of my boat and less than 20 kts, we fly the Zero, it will fly nicely even DDW without being poled out, what makes it not suitable for DDW work is if the sea state is high enough that the autopilot is wallowing 10 degrees or more from course, then your not DDW half of the time and it won’t work, but if the autopilot can hold the heading or you can, then the sail works well.

An IP is not a light wind boat, they sail well with white sails, just takes a lot of wind, over 15 kts, the Code Zero makes it sail nicely requiring well less than 10 kts of wind, so the Zero woke up my boat and means we sail a lot faster almost always and can sail now at wind speeds that normally I wouldn’t even put sails out, just to hear them constantly collapsing, the Code stays filled.

On edit, I’m not sure you can pole out a Code Zero, probably take a really long pole?
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Old 24-04-2020, 17:25   #9
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Ref the UV strip, for a cruising boat absolutely have it, or otherwise it needs to come down as soon as it’s furled, with the strip you can leave it up limited times, my rule is if we are staying somewhere more than two days, it comes down.
I really waffled about buying a code zero, but after having it for a couple of years I can tell you that I use it far more often than my Genoa, and my Genoa is in the loft right now being cut down from 135 to 110, as with the Zero, you don’t need a big Genoa and the 110 goes to windward better and is a better high wind sail.

But if the apparent wind is anywhere from 40 degrees either side of my boat and less than 20 kts, we fly the Zero, it will fly nicely even DDW without being poled out, what makes it not suitable for DDW work is if the sea state is high enough that the autopilot is wallowing 10 degrees or more from course, then your not DDW half of the time and it won’t work, but if the autopilot can hold the heading or you can, then the sail works well.

An IP is not a light wind boat, they sail well with white sails, just takes a lot of wind, over 15 kts, the Code Zero makes it sail nicely requiring well less than 10 kts of wind, so the Zero woke up my boat and means we sail a lot faster almost always and can sail now at wind speeds that normally I wouldn’t even put sails out, just to hear them constantly collapsing, the Code stays filled.

On edit, I’m not sure you can pole out a Code Zero, probably take a really long pole?
Exactly the same, once I got my mack code zero I cut my 135%-110%, I now have two gears instead of one trying to be two gears.
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Old 24-04-2020, 23:27   #10
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post

On edit, I’m not sure you can pole out a Code Zero, probably take a really long pole?
Attached a photo of my 165% code zero poled out. Cruised with a 125% genoa and this sail. But actually didn't use the code zero very often as it was a fairly fast boat in light airs to begin with. But it still paid for itself in less engine hours.
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Old 24-04-2020, 23:38   #11
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

On a catamaran (or trimaran too) you can move the tack from the centreline to the windward bow. This effectively provides a pole the length of your beam.

Rather than wing and wing we’ve flown our gennaker (about 300% of our fore-triangle area in size) from the windward bow from 130 degrees apparent wind angle down to DDW. Not so good as a spinnaker in lighter airs as it’s cut flat, but great with decent breeze as it’s very easy to furl away in a squall.
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Old 24-04-2020, 23:44   #12
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Spoke with a designer at Doyle Sails NZ recently, as we need a new staysail and are considering replacing the rest of our sails over the next few years. Doyle developed and has been using structured luffs (cableless) sails for both downwind and now upwind.

Apparently the IMOCA 60s and the large offshore trimarans are particularly suited for these sails as they require much less halyard tension and reduce head stay sag to almost zero. The furl is much tighter as well as there is no cable volume, which helps their efficiency when they have two or three furled sails in close proximity. And they’re considerably lighter.

For cruising, anyone who wants molded sails (Doyle Stratis, North 3Di, etc) certainly should consider structured luff sails for gennakers and jibs (even with a forestay, the structured luff reduces headstay sag and maintains a flatter sail). For mast-furling mains the structured luff reduces weight and volume inside the mast.

Regarding UV damage, two solutions regardless of the sail material. First, remove the furled sail when you don’t need it. Second, if you can’t or don’t want to remove, then put anti-UV strips along the leech and foot. Adds some weight to light sails, which is why these strips are often left off of gennakers and code type sails.

Of course, even if the longevity of molded sails comes close to matching cheaper materials, the cost per sail over time will be higher. To what cost performance?
Doyle Stratis isn't a molded sail, it is flat laminated membrane panels shaped the traditional way with seams. North is the only company making sails over a 3D mold in a single piece. Its quite different technology.

I'm still not that convinced about the structured luff for cruising. Membranes and laminated sails don't last especially long in the tropics for a number of reasons.

A 11mm-15mm torsion rope doesn't really create a lot of volume furling, but it does add a fair amount of weight. And as for furling mainsails, they don't have any torsion rope, so I don't see how a structured luff is going to reduce weight and volume inside the mast. It might stop the luff stretching.

You have to be careful crossing racing and cruising paths. Sailmakers especially in NZ are very race orientated. Cruisers are rarely sailing their boats to maximum performance and most of the performance gain is close to the wind which most cruisers try to avoid anyway on long passages. Still keep them coming, I get a ton lot of business replacing failed laminated sails with Hydra-Net.

Attached a photo of a cableless sail from Another sailmaker.. Not sure its a good idea mixing a laminate and nylon! I think I'll stick to the torsion rope for those sort of sails!
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Old 25-04-2020, 09:04   #13
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

I have a new Code Zero from North awaiting my boat going back in the water. The sail has what North calls a helix luff, which is a hybrid between cable-less and cabled. There's a Future Fibres torsion cable (though lighter than would have been the case previously) coupled with a projecting luff construction. The torsion cable allows for top-down furling (while an entirely cable-less sail has to be furled bottom-up) and the luff construction allows for reduced halyard loads.

Technically, the sail is not a Code Zero as it has a 65% mid-girth rather than a 75% mid-girth.

I'll report back once I get a chance to use it, whenever that is.
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Old 26-04-2020, 23:14   #14
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

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Originally Posted by SweareDeep View Post
I have a new Code Zero from North awaiting my boat going back in the water. The sail has what North calls a helix luff, which is a hybrid between cable-less and cabled. There's a Future Fibres torsion cable (though lighter than would have been the case previously) coupled with a projecting luff construction. The torsion cable allows for top-down furling (while an entirely cable-less sail has to be furled bottom-up) and the luff construction allows for reduced halyard loads.

Technically, the sail is not a Code Zero as it has a 65% mid-girth rather than a 75% mid-girth.

I'll report back once I get a chance to use it, whenever that is.
For cruising a Code Zero can have any mid-girth percentage you like, 55% isn't uncommon.

Sounds like an interesting solution, and wonder about top down furling a projected luff ( torsion rope has to rotate inside the luff of the sail ). And you also have the luff folding back and snapping back out with the torsion rope in it, where as a straight luff doesn't fold back.
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Old 27-04-2020, 16:40   #15
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Re: Cable-less Code O?

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For cruising a Code Zero can have any mid-girth percentage you like, 55% isn't uncommon.

Sounds like an interesting solution, and wonder about top down furling a projected luff ( torsion rope has to rotate inside the luff of the sail ). And you also have the luff folding back and snapping back out with the torsion rope in it, where as a straight luff doesn't fold back.
Agree 100% with Kestrahl re the trickledown from larger loft racing sails not always being suitable for cruising.
Not sure why the cruising sailor would want a projected luff Code0 with the need to trim this sail type far more. Much easier to go conventional with a moderate mid girth and user friendly!
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