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Old 25-09-2020, 19:58   #1
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brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Long story short, I broke the forestay turnbuckle today raising the mast. I think I bent it once last year but did not think to replace. I was glad there was no crew present (even though I would have liked the help) as without the gin pole and forestay hooked as one to the mainsheet, the lowering process was not so controlled after a certain point and it would have been a shame if anyone had gotten hurt.

Questions:
1. Can anyone recognize and share the make of the turnbuckle from the stamping ?
2.What can I do different to allow a safe raise and lower without stressing the components? I must be doing things wrong to have caused this. Last year the raising went well but the last 2-3 inches were always bear with the current forestay and gin pole. The boat does not have a backstay or a Highfield-type lever (considering adding one) If I have crew, they can push against the mast and give me enough slack to set the clevis pin. By myself it is difficult, which led me to add the loop of line in the turnbuckle to keep tension on the forestay as I transfer it from gin pole to bow plate.


Please and Thanks, Spot
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Old 25-09-2020, 23:39   #2
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

I believe that the emblem is from Schaffer (sp?) marine.

No opinion on question 2... not enough info.

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Old 26-09-2020, 01:31   #3
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

I concur with the advice from Jim Cate that the logo on your fixed fork terminal looks v much like that of Schaefer Marine.

Let's deal with the history, first, before returning to the problem: Frederic M. Schaefer was born and raised in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, the son of Norwegian immigrant Frederic Schaefer who had established and run Schaefer Equipment Co., specialising in designing and manufacturing brake and running gear from railway cars. Frederic M. Schaefer was a recreational sailor and made his first trans-Atlantic voyage (to Norway) at age 17. He graduated from University of Pittsburg in 1941 and joined the US Navy, including serving as captain of a submarine chaser in the Mediterranean during World War 2. After the war, Frederic M. Schaefer joined his father’s company and took over management when his father retired. In 1965, he moved to Boston, Massachusetts, and in 1966 founded Schaefer Marine Products as a division of Schaefer Equipment Co. In 1967, Schaefer Marine bought the established (since at least 1949) manufacturer of blocks, cleats, and other yacht equipment, Whaling City Marine Co. Inc., based in New Bedford, Massachusetts. Frederic M. Schaefer retired as president and chief executive officer of Schaefer Marine in 1990. He owned several yachts and was a member of the Cruising Club of America.

Back to the problem: the broken terminal looks like a fixed fork terminal that has been subjected to force from the side. I'd suggest thinking about replacing it not with another fixed fork terminal but with a toggle fork terminal. That would allow the fork jaws rotate so they are always in line with the rest of the terminal (and the wire rope). Meaning that the terminal would be likely always to be in tension and not subject to a bending force.

As to replacement (and assuming that you do not take this to be a hint to replace all of your rigging, including wire rope, turnbuckles, and terminals), with luck the thread of your present turnbuckle with be UNF. If so, you have no need to purchase a new terminal of the same brand - most any decent rigging shop or marine supply shop should be able to supply a new terminal of the right diameter and thread. Carrying with you the broken terminal and the turnbuckle should assure you of same.

I cannot claim experience of using a gin pole to erect a mast, so I also cannot help with technique.
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Old 26-09-2020, 01:55   #4
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Instead of pulling on the forestay, start by using the jib halyard. If you can’t tighten the forestay enough to put the pin in, attach a small block the the body of the turnbuckle, tie a rope to the port bow cleat, take the other end through the block to the starboard bow cleat and pull it tight. You can bring it to a winch if needed.
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Old 26-09-2020, 04:25   #5
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I believe that the emblem is from Schaffer (sp?) marine.
Schaefer Marine logo looks the same, to me.


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Old 26-09-2020, 05:19   #6
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

The way your fore stay is attached to the gin pole is problematic. The fork is held captive at an odd angle by the padeye.

I’d take a piece of line, run it through two of the padeyes and make a loop around the pole, attach the new turnbuckle to the line and attach the mainsheet to the line on the other side.
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Old 26-09-2020, 08:04   #7
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Thanks Everyone-Sailmonkey, Jedi, Alan, Gord, and Jim.
The logo issue seems sorted, Schaefer it is.

I appreciate the thoughts about the rigging.

It seems like I was trying to 'push a rope' so to speak with my rigging.
With the gin pole pad eyes forcing me to hook onto the side and the line I added mid-turnbuckle, I was in effect pulling the turnbuckle into to pole and then trying to pull the works a little sideways aloft. I am now more surprised it did not fail sooner with all of my misplaced forces.

Diagram enclosed to see if I understand Sailmonkey's idea and the error of my own ways.

The toggled jaws seem better than forged for this, thanks for that suggestion Alan.

Jedi, I am still wondering if a Highfield-type release with a couple inches of give would allow me to make the clevis pin transfer (gin pole to bow plate) without having to deal with the full tension of the rig. Change the system instead of having to beat it each time. With a trailer sailor this can be a daily ordeal.
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Old 26-09-2020, 08:30   #8
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Your diagram is pretty close, I wouldn’t bother with loops top and bottom though, just a single circle that passes through the padeyes on both sides will suffice
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Old 26-09-2020, 09:01   #9
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Putting the mast up often results in rigging kinking/ not laying out straight readily. You pretty much need two people and watch for wires/turnbuckles that dont pull straight without pressure. Keep your eyes open and straighten them out before putting much force into it and you'll be fine. But usually the headstay is lat and connected after the mast is up...? maybe you are doing the backstay last?
Yeah that looks like a Schaeffer turnbuckle.

You may be able to find just a the Fork/Screw for that.
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Old 26-09-2020, 09:04   #10
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

So, first, let me say that I have raised and lowered the mast on our Seaward 25 approximately 30 times with a gin pole arrangement and I have assisted many others with variations on the arrangement. I cannot recall ever having seen the forestay attached directly to the gin pole, rather the gin pole is attached to a halyard that is tied off so that the mast/gin pole/halyard triangle is fixed. A line, often with blocks or led back to a winch, then goes from the end Of the gin pole to a point near the where the forestay attaches. This allows you to freely maneuver the forestay to get it attached. If it is too tight, loosen your swept back shrouds a bit so as to not over tension the rig.
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Old 26-09-2020, 09:26   #11
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Cheechako, no backstay on this one. Forestay, uppers, lowers, and previous owner-added gin pole and baby stays in line with the mast step for raising/lowering when the rest of the standing rig looses tension. Although I did forget the halyards during the first try, I did remember to check the spreaders to make sure they were pointed in a good direction (they have a sort of a stiff u-joint going to the mast).


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Old 26-09-2020, 09:31   #12
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonbat View Post
So, first, let me say that I have raised and lowered the mast on our Seaward 25 approximately 30 times with a gin pole arrangement and I have assisted many others with variations on the arrangement. I cannot recall ever having seen the forestay attached directly to the gin pole, rather the gin pole is attached to a halyard that is tied off so that the mast/gin pole/halyard triangle is fixed. A line, often with blocks or led back to a winch, then goes from the end Of the gin pole to a point near the where the forestay attaches. This allows you to freely maneuver the forestay to get it attached. If it is too tight, loosen your swept back shrouds a bit so as to not over tension the rig.

Thanks CB, that makes sense, a separate triangle for lifting.
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Old 26-09-2020, 10:52   #13
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

I also do not set my gin pole at 90 degrees from the mast. Rather I set it at about 65 degrees so That when the mast is all the way up I still have some room on my blocks to add some tension, if needed, to pin the forestay.
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Old 26-09-2020, 17:58   #14
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

I don't think I have to post my own threads any more just find Spot and there is my problem lol. I made the mistake of just using pure brute force to put up the mast on me ensenada 20 . That was about three weeks ago and I'm still layed up with a bad back from it! Just ran out of arm length before it was all the way up. That counts as a sailing injury right ?
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Old 26-09-2020, 20:43   #15
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Re: brand of Turnbuckle (S+dolphin) and Gin Pole Mast-Raising Woes.

LOL glad to be of service. Heal up soon WK.
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