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Old 05-08-2017, 11:02   #1
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Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Hello all, I have a few different projects going on...one is installing my block and tackle vang. There isnt one currently in place and hasn't had one in the past. Any how my boat is and eastward ho 24, 160 sq.ft. Main sail area, 3700 lbs ballast 8000 displacement. I'm currently outfitting the boat for offshore extended passages. I'm exploring my options as to where to attach the bang on deck. Research has led me to; drill a hole through the base of the mast put a bail through and attach there. Or put a permanent slug in my bolt rope slot and attach it there. Or two pad eyes on each side of the mast run dyneema between the two and attach there. Or place a pad eye just aft of the base of the mast and attach there. I'd like to avoid drilling hole in my mast it has a crack that's been welded that I want to avoid.can you guys give me some feed back as to the most robust effective option? Thank you
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:29   #2
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Drilling and tapping for a two fastener padeye at the base of the mast doesn't seem to work. Own two boats where the PO did this to anchor the vang and the fasteners stripped out on both of them.
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Old 05-08-2017, 13:34   #3
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24 View Post
Hello all, I have a few different projects going on...one is installing my block and tackle vang. There isnt one currently in place and hasn't had one in the past.
I browsed the photos in your gallery, Eh24.

Two or three questions:

1. where, on the boom, do you intend to attach your block and tackle vang? I could not see a mid-boom bail.

2. given that you've not had a vang before, what are the functions you envisage from the vang? for sail trim, such as to deliver leech tension when your end-sheeted boom is outboard of the traveller? or to act as preventer of uncontrolled gybes? or both? or more?

3. thinking outside the box: are you limited to only one block and tackle vang? are there no attachment points along your toe rail?

What that all adds up to is:

* depending on location on your boom to which you would attach your traditional block and tackle vang, you may or may not have a fair lead for the vang to some point along your toe rail (all depending on the geometry of your coachroof);

* if you had two vangs, each a traditional boom vang that can be quickly trimmed and eased (such as https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-...03?recordNum=1 ), you could have one to port and one to stbd. So on every tack, one vang would be lazy and one working. You've good side decks for working in a seaway, so one disadvantage would be having a vang on each side slightly impeding crew traffic along your side decks. The alternative of only one vang would mean having to release vang tension before each tack or gybe, unclip the deck attachment of vang, somehow get the vang out of the way, perform the tack or gybe, then go forward again to clip the deck end of the vang to its new attachment point, then trim the vang.

* then an outboard location for the deck attachment of a boom vang, such as on your toe rail and perhaps at a chainplate, would give you a great sideways lever for trimming leech tension when the end of your boom is outboard of your traveller AND it would deliver more useful gybe preventer functionality than if your vang is attached at the mast collar.

Of course, that would give you another job at each tack and gybe: you'd need to ease the working vang and then trim in the new working vang. The benefit would be the side leverage functionality delivered by the vang.
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Old 05-08-2017, 13:52   #4
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

I will be using the vang for sail trim, I already have preventers ran through blocks foreword. My cat walks are horrible! I have a Bimini dodger and shorouds in the way, and I will be single handing mostly.I never thought about the two vangs. The vang I have is like the one in the links you sent. I guess it's actually called a traditional boom vang, not block and tackle boom vang. I don't have a main sheet traveler to center the boom. I'm hopping the preventers pulling down and forward and the vang tight will help with sail trim. A bridge traveler isn't cheap and I was given this vang, so I figure I should give it a try. I'm am still learning to sail. I can't proper main sail trim, and the boat doesn't point to well,or run off to well. Adding the preventer holding the boom down on a run has help ALOT, I'm hopping to add the vang and use it,instead of the preventer line to hold the boom down. As for pointing I suspect it's my big ol heavy 150 genoa on a cdi furler that's the culprit. But that's anothe issue for another day.
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Old 05-08-2017, 14:53   #5
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Oh and I haven't added the mid boom attachment yet. From what I gather I'll add a bail measure out from the gooseneck the same distance it is from boom to deck?
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Old 05-08-2017, 16:49   #6
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

For the attachments at both boom and mast, consider strops made of either webbing or Dyneema line. They do a good job of distributing load along the spar, and avoid the stress risers inherent in bolted bails. It is necessary to keep the strops from sliding along the spar, and this can be done with clamps made of s/s or aluminium strap, held in place with small machine screws. These screws are not heavily loaded and present a small risk of stress risers being formed.

We've been using such attachments for all loads to the boom for years, and find them easy to make and quite effective. Should work just as well at the base of the mast.

Jim
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Old 05-08-2017, 17:11   #7
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Thanks I like that idea. No holes. my main sail has a bolt rope foot so I'm not sure how I can accomplish this on the boom.? I don't know why i dont like the. thought of the vang being at the base of the mast, but I guess this is the norm. I bought a. Heavy duty pad Eye ,and teak backer blocks I was gonna put through the coach roof, but then again there's holes involved. And am I correct in the placement of the vang on the boom being equal the distance from goose neck to base of mast?I will ponder the strops thanks for the good idea. Kinda off topic but what's your thoughts on having a lose footed main vs the kind I have with a bolt rope?
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Old 05-08-2017, 17:30   #8
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24 View Post
Thanks I like that idea. No holes. my main sail has a bolt rope foot so I'm not sure how I can accomplish this on the boom.? I don't know why i dont like the. thought of the vang being at the base of the mast, but I guess this is the norm. I bought a. Heavy duty pad Eye ,and teak backer blocks I was gonna put through the coach roof, but then again there's holes involved. And am I correct in the placement of the vang on the boom being equal the distance from goose neck to base of mast?I will ponder the strops thanks for the good idea. Kinda off topic but what's your thoughts on having a lose footed main vs the kind I have with a bolt rope?
Well, I switched from attached to loose footed mains on my Catalina 22 trailer sailor back in around 1972, and have never regretted the change in that boat or any of the subsequent boats. No disadvantages, many advantages, including being able to use strops on the boom!

Jim

PS Attachment point on the boom location isn't all t hat critical, but many rigs have the distance from mast to boom attachment distance somewhat greater than boom to mast base distance. This obviously increases the loads on gooseneck and on the vang itself, but seem to be supportable for it is a pretty common geometry.
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Old 05-08-2017, 18:12   #9
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

1. Necklace
Using a strop of webbing as a necklace around the mast or the boom is a great traditional idea. Also lets you try temporary locations to see the effect of leverage and how fair your lead is.

If your mainsail foot is a bolt rope, that rules out a necklace strop.

Does your boom have other fixtures that could be used for temporary attachments? Fixtures associated with reefing, cleats?

2. Boom attachment for a vang
I think a vang running as the hypotenuse of a triangle from boom to mast collar limits your leverage and therefore functionality when trimming the leech of the mainsail on anything broader than a close reach. That's why I suggested looking for an attachment point on your toe rail.

And for leverage the traditional boom vang, the block and tackle vang, is usually attached to about midway along the boom.

You would have to play with the boom at various angles (from a run to a broad reach to a beam reach etc) to look at the lead of a vang from your boom to wherever you choose to make your deck attachment. The geometry of your coachroof/deckhouse may be decisive.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:58   #10
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

I have a rigid vang on my over equiped Freedom 25.

This is my second boat of 6, from 25 to 41 feet, with a rigid vang. One was an Isomat the other a Garhauher. I would not go back to a line vang that serves only one purpose. A rigid vang is so much safer offshore at all times really.
No boom to drop on you when reefing or lowering sail in a rush.

Should be a standard item.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:59   #11
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

I don't think cutting a small hole in the mainsail foot just above the boltrope would hurt it and it would allow a strop.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:04   #12
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Burn a hole.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:24   #13
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

You say you have a bolt rope on the foot of your main, i.e. the foot now threads into a cove in the upper edge of the boom. The EH24 is not a racing boat and never will be, so don't get too agitated about practices that stem from the racing circuits. Racing and cruising are two entirely different beasts. Your life will be easier if you make the easy modifications that are appropriate for a cruising boat.

Do as Jim Cate sez: Use strops. I would add - "wherever you can". Run your mainsl outta the boom-cove and fix the tack to the fitting at the gooseneck with a coupla SS straps so the tack cringle is now an inch or so above the boom edge. The straps need only be a coupla inches long. Keep you existing outhaul on the clew, but hold the clew down to the boom with a strop of appropriate cordage taken through the clew cringle and tied off below the boom.. It doesn't need to be hy-tech stuff like Dyneema. We saided for hundreds of years before marketers began to confuse the issue via the glossy mags :-)!

Foot tension will be provided the same way as before via the clew outhaul. In a baby cruiser like the EH24, why mess with a winch to tauten the main halyard? Put a cringle in the luff of the sail 6", say, above the tack cringle and use an old-fashioned "Cunningham haul" to tension the luff. Simpler, cheaper.

There appears to be some confusion about terminology: A "vang"'s function is to prevent the boom-end lifting in the horizontal plane as you gybe the sail in a wind. A "preventer"'s function is to prevent the boom swinging aft in the horizontal plane as you roll and pitch in light airs.

Both vang and preventer can be affixed to the boom with strops just like Jim sez. The "boat-end" of a preventer is usually taken to the rail or to a cleat forward of the mast and should be removed as the wind comes up and becomes capable of filling the sail to the point where the boom won't lash about.

The "boat-end" of the vang must be made fast at the heel of the mast in a position immediately (sort of) below the vertical hinge line of the gooseneck. Again, a strop will do nicely. As discussed, the "ideal" position of the fixing point on the boom is as far along the boom from the gooseneck as the gooseneck is above the fixing point on the mast. Small potatoes, though, because in an EH24, the forces are intrinsically very small. AND BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT RACING! So lay the strop wherever it is convenient.

As your gear begins to strain as the wind come up, just ease off. Busting you gear is a sign of poor seamanship.

All the best.

TP
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:27   #14
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

Quote: "No boom to drop on you when reefing or lowering sail in a rush."

Well, yes, but this possibility only exists if the manufacturer has "cheaped out" by failing to rig with a running topping lift. Or the owner has failed to correct that omission ;-) No cruising boat should be sans a running topping lift for SEVERAL reasons to do with safety.

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Old 07-08-2017, 00:34   #15
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Re: Block and tackle boom vang attachment points

I'm hopping to add the vang and use it,instead of the preventer line to hold the boom down.

And I am hoping that your bad leg gets better soon, and you don't have to spend so much time hopping about your boat.

😁

Alan
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