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Old 03-06-2023, 08:48   #1
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Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Getting ready to install my self tacking jib track soon.

It’s going to be through bolted right over the berths. Yikes.

I was going to go with my standard approach and put down some butyl tape and tighten down.

It seems that these tracks may bend a little bit and pull pretty hard under load. So I’m assuming it won’t be perfectly stationary, rather it will be dynamic. It will be stationary near the bolts, but right in the middle of two bolts, it may bend a little.

What are the best practices to make sure this never leaks?
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Old 03-06-2023, 10:37   #2
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Never is a very long time ...


Do you have enough space to glue the screw from below (head below the deck) into the deck and fix the track with nuts from above? That should discourage the screw from moving. That plus butyl under the track might do the trick.


Biiig washer under whatever you have below the deck.



If it is a cored deck, you are ging to scratch out the core around the holes and fill the void with epoxy, correct?
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Old 03-06-2023, 10:50   #3
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Movement is going to be a problem. Minimize it.

  • Heavier track. The sailmaker can tell you the sheet load. Unlike Genoa tracks, which take most of the load fore-aft, this track takes most of the load vertically. I would think it should be more like a main sheet track than a genoa track, but pre-bent to the required curve.
  • Reinforcing beam on ceiling following the track.
  • More bolts.
I'm not a fan of self-tacking jibs. I had one and took it off. They don't roller reef well and they are hard to trim for any off the wind course--both of these are a result of the clew angle. But they are easy and good luck.
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Old 03-06-2023, 11:10   #4
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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Movement is going to be a problem. Minimize it.

  • Heavier track. The sailmaker can tell you the sheet load. Unlike Genoa tracks, which take most of the load fore-aft, this track takes most of the load vertically. I would think it should be more like a main sheet track than a genoa track, but pre-bent to the required curve.
  • Reinforcing beam on ceiling following the track.
  • More bolts.
I'm not a fan of self-tacking jibs. I had one and took it off. They don't roller reef well and they are hard to trim for any off the wind course--both of these are a result of the clew angle. But they are easy and good luck.

I mean, itís the track I am supposed to have. Iím not really in charge of picking the track out. Thatís more like a Harken and rigger thing.

Also there are very well defined spots for the hardware to go through it.

I was just thinking that it might have some play. Because there are such loads on it. But maybe Iím wrong. Maybe there is none. Or maybe itís so microscopic. Maybe Iím just overthinking this.

They definitely donít come prevent however. They come as a straight track and you have to bend them yourself. Thatís just how they are. You put in some bolts, get some tension, put in the next bolts, get more tensionÖ then eventually you have the radius youíre looking for.

Of course I never would have known any of that. Since I have never installed new things like this before. Just working as an apprentice over here lol
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Old 03-06-2023, 11:30   #5
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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They definitely donít come prevent however. They come as a straight track and you have to bend them yourself. Thatís just how they are. You put in some bolts, get some tension, put in the next bolts, get more tensionÖ then eventually you have the radius youíre looking for.

This is much more difficult than your description. Judging where the holes need to be drilled can be a problem. It is best to start at the centre and work towards the ends this halves any drift as you progressively drill each hole. Unless you have a preformed solid section in the foam deck you will need to make large radius solid plugs (that epoxy stuff again) by drilling the top skin only and filling. Then you drill the holes right through as each hole in the track is lined up.
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Old 03-06-2023, 11:37   #6
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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Originally Posted by Hesti View Post
Never is a very long time ...


Do you have enough space to glue the screw from below (head below the deck) into the deck and fix the track with nuts from above? That should discourage the screw from moving. That plus butyl under the track might do the trick.


Biiig washer under whatever you have below the deck.



If it is a cored deck, you are ging to scratch out the core around the holes and fill the void with epoxy, correct?
I do have space to put in the fasteners upside down. But Iím not understanding why. Also, they are typically flush fasteners on a track. Flat head. So there is a drill out already in place usually for these types of fastenings.

If I were to put it upside down it would not meet properly with the track typically. I havenít seen the track yet. But the ones I have seen in the past were all set up like that.

Actually I have to do more than a washer because the loads are pretty big on my boat. I have to put half inch G10 discs at 3Ē wide in under the track where bolts come through. Each bolt needs its own little backing plate basically.

And then when it comes to the core replacement, Iím using this new method that they use on all these fancy expensive multi million dollar multi hulls. And hereís why. Resin cracks under this level of loading so fibers need to be involved.

Time to unveil the new technique. The new drill and fill technique.

You drill out bigger than needed and put in a piece of fiberglass tubing, buttering it up with resin and filling all around it to make sure there are no core leaks. Now you have yourself an incompressible, unbreakable thing to tighten down on that will take tremendous loads without cracking, which is what plain resin would do.

This is the technique used on Gunboats and the like. This is the new drill and fill I was talking about. Not necessary for lightly loaded things but very necessary for something like this jib track.
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Old 03-06-2023, 11:39   #7
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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Originally Posted by Tupaia View Post
This is much more difficult than your description. Judging where the holes need to be drilled can be a problem. It is best to start at the centre and work towards the ends this halves any drift as you progressively drill each hole. Unless you have a preformed solid section in the foam deck you will need to make large radius solid plugs (that epoxy stuff again) by drilling the top skin only and filling. Then you drill the holes right through as each hole in the track is lined up.

Yes. That’s exactly it. You start at the center. And put in a couple bolts there, then you keep pressure on them and you keep bending them around your radius.

It’s also extremely important to be dead accurate with this. So putting the holes in the right place is vital. You cannot have the radius changing as you move around the circumference. In other words, the tension on the jib sheet cannot change as it moves around the circumference. So being accurate is really important.

See my last post. It’s the new drill and fill for this. Similar to what you were talking about except for large plugs of epoxy will crack and break and that’s not the best way to do it anymore. We should be using fibers.

I have to admit it’s pretty cool to be the apprentice of somebody that works on these levels of multihulls. The amount of things I am learning is just ridiculous.

There is basically no room for discussion here because he has already run into everything you can possibly run into and knows the answer and the best way to do every single thing in this entire project. Lol.

I am thankful all those people with multi million dollar boat budgets went before me and paid to make all of the mistakes in advance.


Anything I ask about, he already has the answer for. Anything I’m slightly wondering about, he already knows the best way to do it. It’s humbling. But I’m just acting as an assistant or apprentice.

My only question here was really about the butyl tape. If that was the best thing for this type of application. The installation is pretty straightforward. I’ve already been fully instructed on how to do it. What I didn’t know is how to make sure it is not going to leak over the berths. There could be nothing worse!

PS: since the other thread is closed, I wanted to mention that I asked about the rake today as well. No problem on that. And I will have an adjustable forestay to fine-tune the rake. As was mentioned in the other thread, it’s not possible to do a pre-bend because I don’t have a baby stay. I forget which people pointed that out but I know wholeybee was one of them. If I had a baby stay, I wouldn’t have a self tacking jib. So they are mutually exclusive.

However, I can get a removable baby stay in another iteration if I really feel like I need to have pre-bend. Really won’t know if I need that until this thing is out in some waves to see if there is much pumping going on.

And finally, I’m getting all these new and cool toys that I barely even know anything about. Instead of line stoppers? I’m getting constrictors. We already have them. But that’s what I will have. It’s better on the line. There are so many interesting things going on. I can’t wait to share them all with everyone. Once it’s done, I will get pictures of all of it to share. There are so many interesting techniques.
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Old 03-06-2023, 12:16   #8
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Here is the track.

So as you see, it’s a very specific screw head that goes in there. Flat head screws. I can’t go upside down with it.
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Old 04-06-2023, 20:32   #9
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Weld it to the deck (steel boat) ��
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Old 04-06-2023, 23:53   #10
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Chotu, those are counter-sunk screws. You will want Duralac or some other kind of antiseize between the top of the rail and the countersunk portion of the screw, and to caulk the hole. The rigger knows all about this. The nuts can be epoxied to the underside of the deck, deck, even acorn nuts, with big fender washers, but, depending on the construction, you may need to reinforce the deck. You have to be able to snug the track down, but not de-form it.

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Old 05-06-2023, 02:08   #11
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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Chotu, those are counter-sunk screws. You will want Duralac or some other kind of antiseize between the top of the rail and the countersunk portion of the screw, and to caulk the hole. The rigger knows all about this. The nuts can be epoxied to the underside of the deck, deck, even acorn nuts, with big fender washers, but, depending on the construction, you may need to reinforce the deck. You have to be able to snug the track down, but not de-form it.

Ann
Right. Thank you Anne. I’m asking about sealing out water.

People took it off topic. And I just responded.

In the thread itself above you can see where I responded about how we are doing an even though that’s not what I was asking.
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Old 05-06-2023, 03:18   #12
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Use 5200 generously to prevent leaks. Clean up with mineral spirits.
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Old 07-06-2023, 21:01   #13
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Getting ready to install my self tacking jib track soon.

Itís going to be through bolted right over the berths. Yikes.

I was going to go with my standard approach and put down some butyl tape and tighten down.

It seems that these tracks may bend a little bit and pull pretty hard under load. So Iím assuming it wonít be perfectly stationary, rather it will be dynamic. It will be stationary near the bolts, but right in the middle of two bolts, it may bend a little.

What are the best practices to make sure this never leaks?


Can you make a bending jig made out of plywood to bent the track to the exact radius you want? I am not sure it is wise to use the boat as a jig and bend as you go. After that drill bigger and fill with epoxy and cabosil then redrill to proper size. If your top is not solid, then you need to create a larger radius solid structure between the sandwich. Even after filling, I would consider a backing plate to dissipate the forces the track will sustain. After all of that make sure to use a countersink for the butyl to sit well and avoid leaks. Most tracks have a specific bolt requirement with a tight fit. The countersink should be done to the core of the top, and try to keep the bolt from rotating so only the nut is doing the rotation below deck
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Old 08-06-2023, 01:44   #14
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

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Originally Posted by carlosproa View Post
Can you make a bending jig made out of plywood to bent the track to the exact radius you want? I am not sure it is wise to use the boat as a jig and bend as you go. After that drill bigger and fill with epoxy and cabosil then redrill to proper size. If your top is not solid, then you need to create a larger radius solid structure between the sandwich. Even after filling, I would consider a backing plate to dissipate the forces the track will sustain. After all of that make sure to use a countersink for the butyl to sit well and avoid leaks. Most tracks have a specific bolt requirement with a tight fit. The countersink should be done to the core of the top, and try to keep the bolt from rotating so only the nut is doing the rotation below deck
Thanks! I like that bending advice a lot as well.

Seems much easier.
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Old 08-06-2023, 02:32   #15
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Re: Best Practices to Make Sure Jib/Genoa/Traveler Tracks Donít Leak?

I have no idea how the deck is built, sandwich foam core? If so, you should trace under the deck with a good backing plate. Especially if the track is on a surface where there are no bulkheads nearby.

My 2 cents.
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