Advice on Barlow 4 wire winch

[TrentePieds]

And do listen to Stormalong! Being careless around any rope under tension (wire or fibre) is asking for trouble.

There wouldn't be many in this forum accustomed to starting a largish motorcycle - in my day 650 cc counted as "largish" - with a kick-starter. One of those, with the ignition advance set incorrectly, could do a major number on your ankle joint or your shin!

On the Ford "A" produced in the first few years after the stock market went south and gave us the great depression (as it's doing again) a crank was/could be inserted into what we today might call the "damper" - the pulley on the front end of the crank shaft. The "forrard" bearing for the crank was a hole in the bumper. The bumper was, for obvious reasons, called the "cow catcher". That crank could also do evil things to you. Bear that in mind when you leave a winch handle shipped in its winch aboard your boat!

When I first took up flying, the Taylorcraft "Auster" we used had a mighty powerhouse for propulsion. A 135 horse DeHavilland Gypsy Major engine. No electric start. "Hand propping" that beast made the first twenty minutes of flying a bit uncomfortable until your trousers dried off :-)!

Anyhow, as technology proceeds, technique goes somewhere in a basket. But I get pleasure out of curating my Granddad's knowledge and techniques. The future belongs to those of you who learn from us geezers :-)!

TP

[TrentePieds]

Are you serious Stormalong :-)?

Just in case you are: "Touché" is an exclamation in French and in English English acknowledging that your opponent in a fencing match (real or allegorical) has scored, i.e. "touched" you

As for the rest: Titanic, notwithstanding all the fancy engineering that went into her, went to the bottom of the sea because the engineer at Harland & Wolff who "signed off" on her design hadn't foreseen something that shoulda been obvious. It wasn't Cap'n Smith's fault she sank.

On the other hand, the amatoor navigator, Noah, had cobbled together in his backyard a barge with no-one with any particular knowledge to help him with the lines and the scantlings and no-one with the clout to "sign off" on 'er. As I recall - though memory grows dim - The Good Lord was busy at the time smiting the sinful all over the Middle East and had no time to be playing with amatoor boat builders.

And of course when it came to pilotage, Unca Noah was all at sea. Think about it! He had to rely on that least intelligent of birds, the dove, to let him know when stranding was imminent! Now I mustn't be too judgmental about that, for when I was a sailing instructor in the Straits of Georgia (Yes! THAT George!) not too long after Noah swallowed the anchor, I used to tell my students "When you see the gulls walking, it's time to tack!"

At any rate, we are clearly here, having this exchange of views, because Noah and his cargo made it safely to shore. Cap'n Smith didn't :-)!

TP

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Are you serious Stormalong :-)?

Just in case you are: "Touché" is an exclamation in French and in English English acknowledging that your opponent in a fencing match (real or allegorical) has scored, i.e. "touched" you

As for the rest: Titanic, notwithstanding all the fancy engineering that went into her, went to the bottom of the sea because the engineer at Harland & Wolff who "signed off" on her design hadn't foreseen something that shoulda been obvious. It wasn't Cap'n Smith's fault she sank.

On the other hand, the amatoor navigator, Noah, had cobbled together in his backyard a barge with no-one with any particular knowledge to help him with the lines and the scantlings and no-one with the clout to "sign off" on 'er. As I recall - though memory grows dim - The Good Lord was busy at the time smiting the sinful all over the Middle East and had no time to be playing with amatoor boat builders.

And of course when it came to pilotage, Unca Noah was all at sea. Think about it! He had to rely on that least intelligent of birds, the dove, to let him know when stranding was imminent! Now I mustn't be too judgmental about that, for when I was a sailing instructor in the Straits of Georgia (Yes! THAT George!) not too long after Noah swallowed the anchor, I used to tell my students "When you see the gulls walking, it's time to tack!"

At any rate, we are clearly here, having this exchange of views, because Noah and his cargo made it safely to shore. Cap'n Smith didn't :-)!

TP

When you respond without referring to the post that you are responding to I, and probably many others do not understand your response.

Of course I know what Touche' means.

[Dougtiff]

Back in the 80'S, i purchased a used 36 ft. Yawl in Hong Kong that was about 14 year's old, had a aluminum mast with the wire winch on the main, not being familiar with this animal, i made the mistake of releasing the brake with the handle in place, ouch !, damm that hurt, when the handle swung around and hit me in the chest, never liked the winch, always a pain to keep the wire wound on the drum correctly, and then there were the meat hook's to watch out for, changed it later to a regular winch, i would get rid of it, if it were me, winches are a dime a dozen if not self tailing, in fact i have a dozen of them in my shop, different sizes, i will bring and give it to you, when i drive up for the Wooden boat fest. next September. [dptiffany@hotmail,com]

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

Back in the 80'S, i purchased a used 36 ft. Yawl in Hong Kong that was about 14 year's old, had a aluminum mast with the wire winch on the main, not being familiar with this animal, i made the mistake of releasing the brake with the handle in place, ouch !, damm that hurt, when the handle swung around and hit me in the chest, never liked the winch, always a pain to keep the wire wound on the drum correctly, and then there were the meat hook's to watch out for, changed it later to a regular winch, i would get rid of it, if it were me, winches are a dime a dozen if not self tailing, in fact i have a dozen of them in my shop, different sizes, i will bring and give it to you, when i drive up for the Wooden boat fest. next September. [dptiffany@hotmail,com]

Precisely, That is why they don't make them anymore. Those winches make good paperweights and conversation pieces.

Could I get one for the price of shipping?

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

Back in the 80'S, i purchased a used 36 ft. Yawl in Hong Kong that was about 14 year's old, had a aluminum mast with the wire winch on the main, not being familiar with this animal, i made the mistake of releasing the brake with the handle in place, ouch !, damm that hurt, when the handle swung around and hit me in the chest, never liked the winch, always a pain to keep the wire wound on the drum correctly, and then there were the meat hook's to watch out for, changed it later to a regular winch, i would get rid of it, if it were me, winches are a dime a dozen if not self tailing, in fact i have a dozen of them in my shop, different sizes, i will bring and give it to you, when i drive up for the Wooden boat fest. next September. [dptiffany@hotmail,com]

Do you have a Barient or Barlow 5? I'll also pay for shipping if in good shape.

[Jim Cate]

Lots of advice above, with the usual mix of quality and relevance.

So, FWIW: when we bought our previous boat, an early IOR one ton race boat, she had a wire reel main halyard winch coupled to a sail with only a bolt rope that fed into a luff groove on the spar... and the winch was mounted pretty low on the mast. The result was that it took two people to hoist the sail, one to crank and one to feed the sail into the groove.

Replacement of that winch was the very first modification I made to the boat, and adding slugs to the sail was the second... all accomplished within a few days of finishing the delivery from San Diego to SF.

I can't imagine putting up with the inconvenience of a reel winch in this day and age!
So, there's another bit of unsolicited internet advice. As stated, FWIW!

Jim

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Touché - but remember who made safe landfall ;-)!

TP

Exactly my point. Sometimes (often?) the pros and their opinions are overrated.

[GwalarnYacht]

Awesome, thanks a lot

Originally Posted by Bill O

We still have a Barlow 5 wire winch in service for our main. Had them on other boats and no problem.

To help it coil on the drum correctly can try a few things:
When you install the wire halyard make sure the lay of the wire is oriented correctly otherwise it will be fighting you.
Having too large of a wire diameter will make it stiffer/less flexible, making it more difficult to roll on the drum properly.

Obvious safety issue w/the wire winch if you leave the handle in the winch when lowering the sail (remove the handle). Never had a problem and w/proper instruction, never had a crew member injured either. With proper instruction these winches are fine.

Attached is a manual for a 3A which is probably fairly close to what you have.

[GwalarnYacht]

It seems the way to go as suggested by many. Thanks

Originally Posted by olaf hart

Have you considered swapping the wire for Dyneema?

[GwalarnYacht]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

I used one of these years ago, the wire needs to exit the mast at least a meter above the winch, you can sort of guide the wire so it rools onto the drum neatly, just before you reach the hoist required, push the wire onto the "gap" on the drum, this stops the wire from cutting into the coil of wire and jamming, only one or two turns onto the drum in the "gap", from memory the drum has no ratchet, so be careful releasing the brake. I think this winch would work brilliantly with dyneema; on stainless wire we often got broken strands, which were fondly called "meathooks" for obvious reasons.

Ok, now things start to make sense. Thanks

[GwalarnYacht]

Many thanks for the insight!

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Gwalarn:

I think your problem stems from lack of attention to basic physics during original installation.

The "stool" (or "pad") on which the winch sits (the sheet metal doodad riveted to the mast) must have a cant to it so that the fall of the halyard, as it emerges from the fairlead (the "exit hole" in the mast above the winch) will, when it is laid across the winch barrel (at "half height"), make a true right angle with the axis of rotation of the drum. This is awkward to achieve if you have "internal halyards". With old-fashioned "external halyards" it is much less awkward or, indeed. important. When this winch was designed back in King Arthur's time, wooden masts with external halyards were still the common thing.

The purpose of this alignment is to ensure that the physical forces acting on the wire will cause it to "lay" neatly on the barrel working from end to end of the barrel, and then back again, until the barrel is full. The full capacity of the winch should be chosen so that the length of the fall of the halyard JUST fills the barrel when the sail is fully hoisted. Work the numbers: If your barrel is 4" in diameter, then one "lay" of the barrel is (4 x 3.1416) inches = 12.56 inches, call it a foot. If your hoist is 40 feet, you will need 40 turns on the barrel to hoist the sail fully. Can your barrel accommodate that? You can work your own numbers.

The "second gap" you talk about is there so that a rope tail may exit the casing of the winch so that it may be used without its "self stowing" feature. The reason for a rope "tail" is that wire is dangerous to handle with bare hands. The "plate" with a gap in it at the bottom of the barrel is there so the winch can "transist" from wire to rope. This requires that a smooth wire-to-rope splice join the two, and to make one of those seems to be something of a lost art, partly because we use braid instead of laid rope these days. These wire winches antedate braided rope.

In my opinion these winches are a royal PITA from every point of view, and in a cruising boat a halyard winch is totally unnecessary until you get into a
displacement that is far greater than most of us have. My present main on a "five tonner" is a measly 200 Sqft, but in days of yore I was comfortable handling a 450SqFt main on a "twenty-five tonner" without a winch. What is required to do so, is that the gear be set up correctly. To achieve proper luff tension when you don't have a winch you use a "Cunningham haul". And, of course, seamanship and cunning :-)

You haven't told us the size of your boat, but the above may give you something to mull over. :-)

All the best

TrentePieds

[GwalarnYacht]

Thanks for the offer, Malaysia might be a bit far from the wooden boat fest!

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

Back in the 80'S, i purchased a used 36 ft. Yawl in Hong Kong that was about 14 year's old, had a aluminum mast with the wire winch on the main, not being familiar with this animal, i made the mistake of releasing the brake with the handle in place, ouch !, damm that hurt, when the handle swung around and hit me in the chest, never liked the winch, always a pain to keep the wire wound on the drum correctly, and then there were the meat hook's to watch out for, changed it later to a regular winch, i would get rid of it, if it were me, winches are a dime a dozen if not self tailing, in fact i have a dozen of them in my shop, different sizes, i will bring and give it to you, when i drive up for the Wooden boat fest. next September. [dptiffany@hotmail,com]