Acquiring A Ready Made Series Drogue

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Very interesting stuff Conachair, especially about the efforts to predict the rogueness forecast. And the way this can often be predicted by cross swells as seafarers have known for a long time and are described in the appendices in 'The long way'.

I think this sort of seastate forcast will be very important and possibly lifesaving in the future.

Already I am finding grib info like the CAPE index is useful for predicting gusty weather so a similar index for seastate, and other sea phenomena like dynamic fetch and swell against current could be graphically displayed to show dangerous patches of ocean in a way that current wind and significant wave height data doesn't display.

On rogues, one of them was a rogue hole. Just rolled past the ship in a solid force 10 in the Aussie Bight. Must have been 70 foot deep. Very nasty. And we must have hit something similar on my first container ship. Stopped us from 16 knots to 0 knots on a dark night. It did a fair bit of damage.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

. . .

I also have a bias towards having a steering drogue, having jammed a rudder once. MANY boats are abandoned in moderate weather when they loose steering, and this is sad. It's simple to rig a drogue to steer... if you have one... and a JSD tail doesn't really work. The JSD is actually incredibly unstable when shortened, one of the reasons Jordan was emphatic about using enough cones. A JSD makes a crappy speed limiting drogue. I've tried it and it is basically dangerous.

Me too!

I'm having the rudder dropped out of my boat in preparation for this summer's trip, and complete revision of all the steering gear, rudder bearings and seals, etc. I will carry a complete spare pilot pump and bypass solenoid. And I have a steering drogue in my budget.

My future next boat will have a pintle-mounted entire spare rudder. Steering loss is a big concern.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Me too!

I'm having the rudder dropped out of my boat in preparation for this summer's trip, and complete revision of all the steering gear, rudder bearings and seals, etc. I will carry a complete spare pilot pump and bypass solenoid. And I have a steering drogue in my budget.

My future next boat will have a pintle-mounted entire spare rudder. Steering loss is a big concern.

Have you or will you consider one of the other dual use drogue options thinwater talks about? I find it hard to believe that a drogue could be added to an already deployed drogue in even F7 conditions but I'd like someone to test it and let us know. Maybe you could help us out with it?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Have you or will you consider one of the other dual use drogue options thinwater talks about? I find it hard to believe that a drogue could be added to an already deployed drogue in even F7 conditions but I'd like someone to test it and let us know. Maybe you could help us out with it?

Not this summer but maybe some day. Or maybe Thinwater will develop it first.

For my purposes, a JSD and separate steering drogue are fine. With the help of some of the helpful suggestions on this thread, I've decided to order the cones from Ocean Brake, and have the crew fix them to lengths of Acera rope during the first part of the cruise.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I find it hard to believe that a drogue could be added to an already deployed drogue in even F7 conditions but I'd like someone to test it and let us know.

I'v done it, it can be. The procedure needs to be correctly sequenced, but it is pretty simple, not rocket science. You want all these drogues right behind the boat (centered), so you use a bridle, and how to handle the bridle while adding the second drogue is the think to think thru, pretty simple when you think it thru.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I'v done it, it can be. The procedure needs to be correctly sequenced, but it is pretty simple, not rocket science. You want all these drogues right behind the boat (centered), so you use a bridle, and how to handle the bridle while adding the second drogue is the think to think thru, pretty simple when you think it thru.

Do you add another drogue to the same bridle with a longer line? Wouldn't they tangle? Do you have a link to the procedure?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Do you add another drogue to the same bridle with a longer line?

no

Our bridle was created by icicle hitching a second line on to the main rode (using a spare sheet usually).

There are various ways to do this, what we settled on was . . . .

You take up tension on the 'spare' bridle arm, which unloads the main rode; Attach the 2nd drogue to the end of the main rode and put a second rode on that drogue; Make sure it is all free to run, and cast off the sheet (it will stream back out of the way of the new drogue), when you get near as much of the second rode out as you want, icicle hitch a new bridle line, set it up on the other side and ease the rode out until centered.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

no

Our bridle was created by icicle hitching a second line on to the main rode (using a spare sheet usually).

There are various ways to do this, what we settled on was . . . .

You take up tension on the 'spare' bridle arm, which unloads the main rode; Attach the 2nd drogue to the end of the main rode and put a second rode on that drogue; Make sure it is all free to run, and cast off the sheet (it will stream back out of the way of the new drogue), when you get near as much of the second rode out as you want, icicle hitch a new bridle line, set it up on the other side and ease the rode out until centered.

Sounds very difficult in poor conditions. Using a winch to take up tension on the spare bridle arm to unload the main rode requires the winch to bear that load. Not sure the winch can handle that and it certainly wasn't recommended for the JSD by Jordan. I guess it's doable for some and a lot of winch mountings could handle the load for the overwhelming conditions drogues are used in, but certainly not anywhere near worst case conditions. I think it needs to be stupid simple to be relied upon in serious conditions. Dockhead may be wise in choosing separate devices for different purposes.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Thanks Evans, Sounds like a straightforward enough system with a bit of practice and forethought.

[Don C L]

Anyone here actually tried using a drogue or some other drag to steer with after the rudder is gone? I used to read about it, and in theory it seemed like a good idea, but when the Frers 65 I was on had its rudder fall off, trying to rig it was such a PITA, and there really wasn't much leverage, that we opted for just sailing her and getting the right balance of the main and jib, and being ready on the sheets. It was surprisingly easy but we couldn't get her to point very high.. but we were only at it for a day before we got a tow. I really wanted to keep practicing! I think to make it work with a drogue we would have had to rig the spinnaker pole across the cockpit against the winches to get enough leverage from the outboard ends (blocks.) We gave up on that though.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Offically it's twice the significant wave height.

yeah I actually knew that.. sometimes my humor washes over the deck

[kmacdonald]

Do the races that require independent emergency steering accept drogues as an option?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Have you or will you consider one of the other dual use drogue options thinwater talks about? I find it hard to believe that a drogue could be added to an already deployed drogue in even F7 conditions but I'd like someone to test it and let us know. Maybe you could help us out with it?

Really? I've done it in force 8 repeatedly in testing and it was easy. Remember, the bridle is on the winches at this point, not cleats. The trick it to have an extension of the rode in the cockpit. Just add the next section, complete with bridle and then cast the old bridle off. A child would be strong enough.

(Oops. Just read Evan's post. What he said too.)

In force 7-8 conditions the load on the drogue will be similar to genoa sheeting loads in the peaks and far less in the lulls. There is no risk to primary winches (Evan and I have both measured this--we're not guessing). That is based on winch working load, not mountings, which should be far stronger, so long as you switch to a tug boat hitch, which is simple.

Would I switch to cleats or chain plates in a survival storm? Simply rig the last bridle that way. But that's irrelevant to any cruising I will do.

Try it and then practice in stronger conditions. Drogues require practice. Like anything, your boat will teach you the tricks.

Getting the drogues back in is harder.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Do the races that require independent emergency steering accept drogues as an option?

That is my understanding. You can look it up in the World Sailing Offshore Rule, if you are curious. It has been well-demonstrated. It is also by far the simplest to rig in poor conditions. Sailing to windward is limited, but other courses are practical. IF you have fuel for the engine it is very simple.

4.15

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Anyone here actually tried using a drogue or some other drag to steer with after the rudder is gone? I used to read about it, and in theory it seemed like a good idea, but when the Frers 65 I was on had its rudder fall off, trying to rig it was such a PITA, and there really wasn't much leverage, that we opted for just sailing her and getting the right balance of the main and jib, and being ready on the sheets. It was surprisingly easy but we couldn't get her to point very high.. but we were only at it for a day before we got a tow. I really wanted to keep practicing! I think to make it work with a drogue we would have had to rig the spinnaker pole across the cockpit against the winches to get enough leverage from the outboard ends (blocks.) We gave up on that though.

I have also tried it with the rudder jammed to one side.

The trick is to rig the drogue bridle at the point of max beam and near the keel. You also keep the drogue near the transom.

Try it.