Acquiring A Ready Made Series Drogue

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

According to the inventor, Don Jordan :

"
"The increased stretch will not reduce the load, in a breaking wave strike. In fact it will increase it a bit. The drogue must pick up the load quickly before the boat broaches and must turn the boat into the wave. The cones near the boat perform this function and THE LESS STRETCH THE BETTER [emphasis added]."

As quoted in this forum some years ago by CarinaPDX.

What the report said was this (it may have said more that I missed):

[familysailing]

ocean brake cone construction

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I'm not so sure you need to design for "worst case scenario loads". The working loads even in a survival storm are only about 10% of once in a lifetime worst case loads. That "worst case scenario" won't happen even if you only occasionally check the weather. After all, we just don't get blindsided by hurricanes anymore so why design for them. I guess if it helps you sleep better go for it but I prefer a lighter, easier to store and handle Jordan Series Drogue.

Depends on where you sail. Along the coast only a day or two from harbour I don't think you need a drogue at all of any kind. I've sailed tens of thousands of miles without one, including 8 crossings of the North Sea, and never even came close to feeling the need for one, although I did some foolish chit a few times.

But I will be sailing from Greenland nonstop to Ireland, maybe 1200 miles, at latitudes from possibly 70N to above 50N. Through a sea area which has the highest seas anywhere outside of the Southern Ocean and possibly a couple of other places. I will work hard on the right weather window, but I have been advised by those who have been there, that I had better be ready for F10. It's a good week of sailing and a "weather window" -- in the sense of a period when you are guaranteed or even nearly guaranteed not to have a storm may simply not exist.

So I think in my case the design standards of the drogue need to be what Don Jordan laid down. I would sure hate to have to tell the crew "We've got a F10 but, I'm sorry, the drogue is only specced for F9 -- sorry."

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by familysailing

ocean brake cone construction

Very nice! I'm convinced. I'll buy the cones from them. Thanks very much.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

What the report said was this (it may have said more that I missed):

CarinaPDX was quoting from private correspondence with Don Jordan, who apparently was very approachable and helpful.

But in any case, I think this is all clear. And there are plenty of reports, all positive, of people actually using dyneema JSD's. I'm convinced.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So I think in my case the design standards of the drogue need to be what Don Jordan laid down. I would sure hate to have to tell the crew "We've got a F10 but, I'm sorry, the drogue is only specced for F9 -- sorry."

10% of worst case would be good to at least F11 and probably Cat 1 hurricanes I would guess. Above that and you most likely wouldn't survive anyway. The JSD design is based on what force could potentially be exerted on a boat by a large breaking wave. Even if the drogue kept the boat from being accelerated into the the trough doesn't mean it will save the boat. A large breaking wave could sink the boat and the drogue won't necessarily prevent that from happening with a large breaking wave over the transom. If you ever find yourself in hurricane conditions, you will know you did something wrong.

[kmacdonald]

One of the best safety features is the ability to get weather reports. Prevention is key since not all conditions are survivable. The JSD design only considers one of the perils and the boat would be sunk long before worst case scenario is ever reached. My conclusion is that the weather reports are much more valuable than a drogue or any other safety device for that matter. There are few, if any, reports of JSD's being used in survival conditions. (F12 and above) Don't make the mistake of thinking the JSD can save you from any conditions because it can't. It has it's limitations. It is worth having and using though.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

CarinaPDX was quoting from private correspondence with Don Jordan, who apparently was very approachable and helpful.

But in any case, I think this is all clear. And there are plenty of reports, all positive, of people actually using dyneema JSD's. I'm convinced.

Sounds good.

What puzzled me was the stark conflict within the report. Double braid nylon was the most elastic line widely available at the time (he ruled out 3-strand because of its long-known tendency to unwind under load). I remember him commenting later that polyester was preferred, but I cannot find that. Dyneema was not available.

I've purposely taken up slack and hurled my boat at JSD and other drogues at up to 10 knots, full throttle and full sail. There simply is no "impact force." The load is the same as the force against the drogue at steady speed. It is not an anchor, it's a clutch that slips.

(There is a slight impact related to accelerating the water in the cones.)

[estarzinger]

There were 'worst case' waves in the 1998 sydney to hobart storm, which was not that super strong of a storm (50ish sustained, gusts to 70). And there were 'worst case' waves near the azores in the summer season. It does not take super huge waves to create 'worst case', it just takes 'decent size' (like 12m) ones that for one reason or another start breaking down their full height (rather than just at their crest which is more typical). Both weather situations had particular (different in these two cases) circumstances which caused decent sized breaking waves in wind conditions where they might not normally occur. Current, wind shifts, waves from several different directions, micro bursts, etc can all be contributing factors to causing the shift from crest breaking to full wave breaking.

There is a decent analysis of the likely loads on the Winston Churchill 'going down the mine' on a full breaking wave this sort of size (I think on jordans site). It is illuminating.

These cases are quite low probability, but they do occur on normal sailing routes in normal seasons; and they are not that easy to predict - eg you can see there will be storm force, but you are not certain if there will just be typical breaking crests or if circumstances will create the full breaking waves.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

One of the best safety features is the ability to get weather reports. Prevention is key since not all conditions are survivable. The JSD design only considers one of the perils and the boat would be sunk long before worst case scenario is ever reached. My conclusion is that the weather reports are much more valuable than a drogue or any other safety device for that matter. There are few, if any, reports of JSD's being used in survival conditions. (F12 and above) Don't make the mistake of thinking the JSD can save you from any conditions because it can't. It has it's limitations. It is worth having and using though.

Well, of course, but it's not either/or. Weather is certainly key, but no amount of weather forecasts can tell you with complete certainty what will be a week from now. Get out a few days or a week from land, and you're COMMITTED.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Sounds good.

What puzzled me was the stark conflict within the report. Double braid nylon was the most elastic line widely available at the time (he ruled out 3-strand because of its long-known tendency to unwind under load). I remember him commenting later that polyester was preferred, but I cannot find that. Dyneema was not available.

I've purposely taken up slack and hurled my boat at JSD and other drogues at up to 10 knots, full throttle and full sail. There simply is no "impact force." The load is the same as the force against the drogue at steady speed. It is not an anchor, it's a clutch that slips.

(There is a slight impact related to accelerating the water in the cones.)

I suppose he just thought it through better, after he had the chance.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by thinwater

There simply is no "impact force." The load is the same as the force against the drogue at steady speed. It is not an anchor, it's a clutch that slips.(There is a slight impact related to accelerating the water in the cones.)

This comment puzzles me a bit, because I know from experience that the load cycles quite a lot as you go up the back of a wave and come down the front - and I mean from quite low load (eg which you can pull in by hand) to 3500lbs in the cycle.

How does that work in with your findings?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

This comment puzzles me a bit, because I know from experience that the load cycles quite a lot as you go up the back of a wave and come down the front - and I mean from quite low load (eg which you can pull in by hand) to 3500lbs in the cycle.

How does that work in with your findings?

Actually, that makes sense. I've noticed that too, and it's a big help during recovery. You're fighting particle rotation, so the water in different part s of the wave train are moving very differently. But that is not impact force, it is because the water near the drogue is moving away from you at one point, and motionless the next.

Waves are complicated, defying simple solutions.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I'm not so sure you need to design for "worst case scenario loads". The working loads even in a survival storm are only about 10% of once in a lifetime worst case loads. That "worst case scenario" won't happen even if you only occasionally check the weather. After all, we just don't get blindsided by hurricanes anymore so why design for them. I guess if it helps you sleep better go for it but I prefer a lighter, easier to store and handle Jordan Series Drogue.

Using a series drogue is the 'worst case' scenario, no point in lugging it around unless it is fit for purpose and strong enough for the 1 in 30000 wave strike.

Built to Jordan's specs (with dyneema to seduce bulk) and you have a very useful survival tool. Are there any boats that have been capsized with a proper JSD?

Conventional techniques like running with (or without) a drogue, heaving too or forereaching work just fine for a normal blow, but dont give good protection against a rogue wave, plunging or rolling breakers.

Even with good forcasting it can be impossible to avoid severe weather offshore. Your average yacht is just too slow, and long range forcasts are still not perfect. Good forcasting certainly does reduce the odds of encountering dangerous weather but doesn't eliminate the risk completely by any stretch.

A few months ago heading to Antarctica on the Aussie icebreaker I got this footage. Not a survival storm, but it shows a nasty wave quite well, one where a JSD would be the best option. The first wave (around 10 seconds in) is the scary one. A real plunging breaker.

https://youtu.be/pu4ogCy5d4k

I will go dyneema when I rebuild my JSD for the bigger boat. The freying is only on the first 20% of the cones. I'll replace them with much stronger cones, but reuse the old lightweight ones for the tail. This could be a viable option to save weight and bulk, alomg with a tapered dyneema warp.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Are there any boats that have been capsized with a proper JSD?

I am aware of one - singlehander, trying to complete a wrong way rtw, traditional boat (47'ish), to the east of south Georgia. Was knocked over, bad enough had to abandon - there was rig damage, I'm not sure what else, I imagine he was very frightened and tired but the reputation was that he did not give up easily.

As to 'proper' jsd - he told me he did, said all the right things, but who ever really knows for sure after incidents like this.

It was a few years back, either our last year down there or the year we sailed north. I could probably go back and dig up year and boat name.