What is Spectra SC-1, really?

[earthbm]

Spectra claims:
"Note: Do not use metasodium-bisulfate, Citric Acid, or any other storage chemical not supplied by Spectra. These chemicals, used to store other watermaker brands, are very acidic and will damage the Clark Pump"

However 2 data points:

1) In Europe, where they are forced to disclose the components, so they don't seem to market SC-1 (at least in countries where EU rues are enforced). See this discussion on Jeanneau forums.

They market something called Acid Membrane Cleaner
which is 100% citric acid.
Safety Data Sheet

2) Schenker makes a compound called SC-1, which is also 100% citric acid.
From Schenker watermaker manuals, SC-1 is used the same way SC-1 is used for Spectra.


It's not that Spectra's SC-1 is 10x the price of citric acid. It is just annoyingly hard to get in far away places.

[PippaB]

From my understanding, including the SDS for SC-1 it is King Lee Technologies MEMSTOR repackaged.

The SC-1 SDS lists boric acid, and the MEMSTOR SDS lists three "trade secret" acids/salts. The largest one, at >80%, has the same health characteristics as boric acid, so that is a likely candidate. The next one, at <10% has the same health characteristics as citric acid, so another likely candidate. The last trade secret acid, at <5% has the same health characteristics as metaboric acid.

Based solely on circumstantial evidence, I would estimate that SC-1 is:

• boric acid 85-90%
• citric acid 5-10%
• metaboric acid 1-5%

Or just use propylene glycol, it lasts longer anyway.

[Fredrikx]

As already suggested by PippaB, why don't you use propylene glycol ?
For winterizing, I only use propylene glycol at 40%. It seems to work great and it is recommended by Schenker and Spectra.

[SailingHarmonie]

OK everybody who doesn't know...

For products sold in the US every one must have a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) these are readily available to a simple online search. They do not always contain a list of every ingredient, because some are listed as trade secrets, but in the case of SC-1 you can easily see that some people here have it very wrong, despite being very confident in their opinions.

SC-1 is a Boric Acid formulation NOT Citric Acid. Citric Acid, which has some utility as a cleaning agent for RO membrances, would make a TERRIBLE storage agent since it is not at all a biocide. Using it for long term storage would be very detrimental to your membrances.

SC-1 likely CONTAINS a small amount of citric acid to lower the pH to the specified value.

It's a bit more complex than you might think...

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by Fredrikx

As already suggested by PippaB, why don't you use propylene glycol ?
For winterizing, I only use propylene glycol at 40%. It seems to work great and it is recommended by Schenker and Spectra.

Agree that it would be better. But in the tropical far away places it never freezes , so there is no need for food grade antifreeze. So it's not available either.


I see another product that they call "membrane preservative".
<40% citric acid
<10% sodium alkyl benzene sulphonate


So there is probably more than one solution. Can't see sourcing and mixing all the ingredients in the field.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by earthbm

Spectra claims:
"Note: Do not use metasodium-bisulfate, Citric Acid, or any other storage chemical not supplied by Spectra. These chemicals, used to store other watermaker brands, are very acidic and will damage the Clark Pump"

However 2 data points:

1) In Europe, where they are forced to disclose the components, so they don't seem to market SC-1 (at least in countries where EU rues are enforced). See this discussion on Jeanneau forums.

They market something called Acid Membrane Cleaner
which is 100% citric acid.
Safety Data Sheet

2) Schenker makes a compound called SC-1, which is also 100% citric acid.
From Schenker watermaker manuals, SC-1 is used the same way SC-1 is used for Spectra.


It's not that Spectra's SC-1 is 10x the price of citric acid. It is just annoyingly hard to get in far away places.

Propylene glycol. Is best for all watermakers
Ask tellie
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...llie-9014.html
Our resident spectra dealer and one of our watermaker gurus

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by earthbm

Agree that it would be better. But in the tropical far away places it never freezes , so there is no need for food grade antifreeze. So it's not available either...

Ahh, but propylene glycol is not just an antifreeze, so knowing its other uses can prove useful. It was available in Curacao, for instance, from a cosmetics company. PG is used in many cosmetic formulations, and generally needs to be the good stuff.

It is also frequently used as a carrier for vapes and e-cigarettes and similar products, and can be found in shops (including marijuana shops where that is legal) that manufacture their own special products/flavors.

It is also used as a food additive (adulterant?). In the US the FDA allows "seasonings and flavorings" to be up to 97% PG, so in the tropics it can be found as a spice extractant. It is also found in sweets and confections up to 25%.

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

OK everybody who doesn't know...

For products sold in the US every one must have a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) these are readily available to a simple online search...

Since it appears we want to be pedantic - no. The United States has not used the term "Material Safety Data Sheet" since 2012, and no one needs to provide one. If you search for MSDS you will likely find old information.

In 2012 the US moved to the United Nations Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labeling of Chemicals which does not use the "M" and it is called a "Safety Data Sheet" or "SDS".

You can easily see that some people here have it very wrong, despite being very confident in their opinions

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Ahh, but propylene glycol is not just an antifreeze, so knowing its other uses can prove useful. It was available in Curacao, for instance, from a cosmetics company. PG is used in many cosmetic formulations, and generally needs to be the good stuff.

It is also frequently used as a carrier for vapes and e-cigarettes and similar products, and can be found in shops (including marijuana shops where that is legal) that manufacture their own special products/flavors.

It is also used as a food additive (adulterant?). In the US the FDA allows "seasonings and flavorings" to be up to 97% PG, so in the tropics it can be found as a spice extractant. It is also found in sweets and confections up to 25%.

Not to mention in my boats refrigeration system
Now days most holding plate systems have it in them

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Since it appears we want to be pedantic - no. The United States has not used the term "Material Safety Data Sheet" since 2012, and no one needs to provide one. If you search for MSDS you will likely find old information.

In 2012 the US moved to the United Nations Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labeling of Chemicals which does not use the "M" and it is called a "Safety Data Sheet" or "SDS".

You can easily see that some people here have it very wrong, despite being very confident in their opinions

Not quite correct in the trucking industry we still use the term MSDS and have those sheets for the hazardous cargo we haul.

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Not quite correct in the trucking industry we still use the term MSDS and have those sheets for the hazardous cargo we haul.

If you are still using the MSDS format then you are in violation of OSHA regulations. It may be common colloquial use to call them "MSDS", but the SDS has a specific, standardized format that can be found at 29CFR1910. OSHA cancelled the MSDS format in Directive CPL 02-02-079 dated July 9, 2015.

All manufacturers, importers, distributors and employers must be in full compliance with HCS 2012 no later than June 1, 2015, except where noted in 1910.1200(j)(2). Where a manufacturer, importer, or distributor have exercised “reasonable diligence” and “good faith” to obtain HCS 2012-compliant SDSs from upstream suppliers but have not received them, they will be allowed limited continued use of HCS 1994-compliant MSDSs and labels. See Section X.F.2.h of this Instruction for further detail

In these limited situations, manufacturers and importers must promptly create HCS 2012-compliant labels within six months after they develop the updated SDS. This accommodation is provided as a reasonable relief to the requirement under 1910.1200(f)(11) that container labels be revised within six months after learning of new hazard information. All containers shipped after the six-month period must be labeled with an HCS 2012-compliant label.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PippaB

If you are still using the MSDS format then you are in violation of OSHA regulations. It may be common colloquial use to call them "MSDS", but the SDS has a specific, standardized format that can be found at 29CFR1910. OSHA cancelled the MSDS format in Directive CPL 02-02-079 dated July 9, 2015.

Nope I don't have to follow OSHA i follow FMCSA unless things have changed in the last 3 years since i retired from driving my truck .
Independent O/O

[PippaB]

OSHA’s Hazard Communication Standard (HCS):

Under OSHA’s Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200), chemical manufacturers, importers, or distributors (including transporters) are responsible for providing the SDS to downstream users of the hazardous materials.

Obligation of the Driver (as a Distributor):

The driver, in this context, acts as an agent of the distributor of the chemical.

Distributors are required to ensure that the SDS is transmitted with the first shipment of a hazardous chemical to a customer, and subsequently whenever the SDS is updated.
This means the SDS must either physically accompany the shipment (e.g., as a hard copy) or be transmitted in another acceptable way (e.g., electronically, as long as the recipient has immediate access).

Driver’s Specific Role:

If the driver is an employee of a distribution company, the company is responsible for ensuring the SDS accompanies the shipment. The driver might physically hand over the SDS, but ensuring compliance is typically a company responsibility.

If the driver is an owner-operator acting as a self-employed distributor, they hold the responsibility to ensure the SDS is delivered.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PippaB

OSHA’s Hazard Communication Standard (HCS):

Under OSHA’s Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200), chemical manufacturers, importers, or distributors (including transporters) are responsible for providing the SDS to downstream users of the hazardous materials.

Obligation of the Driver (as a Distributor):

The driver, in this context, acts as an agent of the distributor of the chemical.

Distributors are required to ensure that the SDS is transmitted with the first shipment of a hazardous chemical to a customer, and subsequently whenever the SDS is updated.
This means the SDS must either physically accompany the shipment (e.g., as a hard copy) or be transmitted in another acceptable way (e.g., electronically, as long as the recipient has immediate access).

Driver’s Specific Role:

If the driver is an employee of a distribution company, the company is responsible for ensuring the SDS accompanies the shipment. The driver might physically hand over the SDS, but ensuring compliance is typically a company responsibility.

If the driver is an owner-operator acting as a self-employed distributor, they hold the responsibility to ensure the SDS is delivered.

What a lot of someone's wrong bs. Over one word " material "
Which still applies it is the safety data sheet for the material you are hauling so it is a material " safety data sheet"

[GordMay]

If you are using an “MSDS”, in lieu of an “SDS”, it will be more than three years old.
This would be a material [pun intended] breach of [both] the old, and new legislation.
Under the old legislation, an “MSDS”, for a controlled product, must not be more than three years old.
If new, significant information becomes available before the three years has elapsed, the supplier is required to update the product label, and MSDS.
If there is no new information on the ingredients by the end of the three-year period, the supplier should review the MSDS, and the label, for accuracy, revise it where necessary, and revise the preparation date on the MSDS.