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Old 24-01-2020, 05:14   #16
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Thanks, Sailor Boy and Minggat.

Sailor Boy, muriatic acid is expensive in Oz, where we are, and vinegar is dead cheap and easy, too. So now I have another question: how much vinegar into the bowl for, say, 350 ml. of urine? Also, what kind of spray bottle would you use? Like for ketchup? or more like bathroom sprays?

And, thanks so much for the help.

Ann
A gal of muriatic acid makes 10 gal of a 10% mixture and probably isnt as expensive to vinegar as you make think considering the volume and acid strength.

Impossible to say amount. Any squeeze bottle will work, if i did i would look for a lb type squeeze bottle with the curved nozzle. You would even use a spray bottle as lock as it doesn't have a steel spring
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Old 24-01-2020, 06:08   #17
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

Get your boring chemistry lesson

https://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Co...-Langelier.htm
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Old 24-01-2020, 06:59   #18
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

Raritan has cautioned strongly against using household cleaners, and by inference, anything approaching muriatic acid, or even Barnacle Buster.

You're drawing an incorrect inference, Skip. In fact, Raritan's instructions for cleaning the mineral buildup off the electrode pack in a Lectra/San used to call for a 12% solution of muriatic acid. After they introduced their private label version of Sew Clean Sew Clean which they call C.H. Cleans Hoses, they began recommending it instead--not because there's anything wrong with continuing to use muriatic acid, but because they want to sell their own product.


I dunno what you've been doing to your PHII toilets, but when installed and maintained according to directions--keep the pumps well lubricated and put a rebuild kit (about $60) in ''em every 5-6 years--they easily last 20+ years, rarely needing anything else except a new joker valve annually and a new air valve after 8-10 years.

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Old 24-01-2020, 07:39   #19
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Originally Posted by peghall View Post
Raritan has cautioned strongly against using household cleaners, and by inference, anything approaching muriatic acid, or even Barnacle Buster.

You're drawing an incorrect inference, Skip. In fact, Raritan's instructions for cleaning the mineral buildup off the electrode pack in a Lectra/San used to call for a 12% solution of muriatic acid. After they introduced their private label version of Sew Clean Sew Clean which they call C.H. Cleans Hoses, they began recommending it instead--not because there's anything wrong with continuing to use muriatic acid, but because they want to sell their own product.


I dunno what you've been doing to your PHII toilets, but when installed and maintained according to directions--keep the pumps well lubricated and put a rebuild kit (about $60) in ''em every 5-6 years--they easily last 20+ years, rarely needing anything else except a new joker valve annually and a new air valve after 8-10 years.

--Peggie
Thanks, Peggie,

It's good to know, then.

As to our failures, I dunno, but it's very annoying; the inference from talking with Raritan was that using muriatic (our only solution in the early days) might have been the stimulus.

I may have conflated their caution found in https://raritaneng.com/pdf_files/ph_II/L04v0505.pdf (which doesn't include muriatic acid), below, in my concern.

Cleaning Instructions
IMPORTANT: Do not use cleaners that contain
ammonia, ethyl acetate, phosphoric acid or
concentrated chlorine bleach. These may cause
damage to the toilet.
Using C.P. a bio-enzymatic toilet bowl cleaner
(available from Raritan Engineering) will keep the
bowl clean and fresh smelling.

(I think Barnacle Buster uses Phosphoric, but I also don't think we'd discovered BB during the time we were putting scale-buster down the toilet)

The bases both cracked along the bottom profile area (not on a die mark, not directly bottomed), and our several pump failures have been random in the locations.

We've found that our pump routine (pump while using, then flush with 20 each wet and dry strokes) goes through (or something in the water is abrading??) the shaped O-ring on the piston (which has also had a failure at least once, though we caught it before it actually broke, for which we're thankful) such that we have to rebuild more frequently than your expectation.

Our forward head, at one point (don't recall exactly when) had enough issues that we replaced it entirely, as to replace the leaking parts (base and pump housing, and needing rebuild), would cost almost as much as an entire unit. I'm adequately paranoid that my spares bin has a base and a housing, a couple of rebuild kits and an entire pump. The last pump housing failure was relatively recently, and I had to do a full rebuild not long afterward (the shaped O-ring having been worn out by a couple of years of use, and the other stuff came in the full kit).

This all started with wondering how much time I had before I had to do a major flush (your routine) in the face of not-that-much with the admiral. Tossing some neutralizer into the pot before a minimal flush, I don't think, will get any traction aboard

By the way, our conversion to PVC was stellar, even with our wreck. Not the first whiff of head smell aboard in the 13 years we've been using it....
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Old 24-01-2020, 07:40   #20
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Sailorboy1, which dilute acid would you recommend?????

Thanks in advance for the info.

Ann
In the navy when i ran the sewage treatment plants we used citric acid cakes to prevent the scale buildup in the urinals and the amount of flushing did nothing to stop the building up ( seawater flush off the firefighting pressure system)

A little white vinegar a day will do the job .
Also putting a bit of vegie oil (1/4 cup or so ) with a pump or 2 to get the oil into the pump when you are leaving it for an extended period will keep the seals lubricated .
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Old 24-01-2020, 10:16   #21
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

Do not use vinegar (acetic acid) or muriatic acid in your system if you have any nylon fittings in your system as they are not compatible.(google it) We used vinegar fairly regularly for the 12 weeks we cruised each year and filled the system with it and closed the through hull at the end of each season. Last summer I decided to treat the holding tank with muriatic acid. When I went to empty it out the hose came off the nylon nipple screwed into the Marlon ball valve, pictures attached. As the muriatic acid would have had minimal contact time I suspect the vinegar has at least started the dissolving.
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Old 24-01-2020, 10:30   #22
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

I buy vinegar at the dollar store and keep a gallon handy at each head. Dump a cup or so in every day or two, and if I am going to be gone a while, dump some in and give it a slight flush. I do not have a problem with scale.

Also, having a dark blue hull, salt crusts on the hull. After a crossing the hull and cap rails are spotted with tough white salt particles, a bucket of 50 50 vinegar and water and a soft sponge takes it right off.

Cleans my Nespresso machine too.

M
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:01   #23
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Originally Posted by Nanamuk View Post
Do not use vinegar (acetic acid) or muriatic acid in your system if you have any nylon fittings in your system as they are not compatible.(google it) We used vinegar fairly regularly for the 12 weeks we cruised each year and filled the system with it and closed the through hull at the end of each season. Last summer I decided to treat the holding tank with muriatic acid. When I went to empty it out the hose came off the nylon nipple screwed into the Marlon ball valve, pictures attached. As the muriatic acid would have had minimal contact time I suspect the vinegar has at least started the dissolving.
your not supposed to fill your system with any kind of acid like that for a long period . Heck let it sit long enough vinegar will eat 304 SS.
Add a bit let it sit for an hour or so then flush well .
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:15   #24
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

@SailorBoy1:

You're probably right about the muriatic acid being cheaper, even here, but it is much easier for us to use vinegar, which I use for other cleaning, as well. Would you say 1 capful per flush should neutralize even strongly alkaline urine? I really like the idea of doing it, that way, rather than treating the hoses afterward. I think it's brilliant!

Thanks again for the help.
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:18   #25
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

A Natures Head compost toilet makes all this aggravation go away !!!!!!
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:24   #26
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

Got a 1 gallon bottle of vinegar in the cupboard next to the head for just this purpose.
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:27   #27
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Originally Posted by Nanamuk View Post
Do not use vinegar (acetic acid) or muriatic acid in your system if you have any nylon fittings in your system as they are not compatible.(google it) We used vinegar fairly regularly for the 12 weeks we cruised each year and filled the system with it and closed the through hull at the end of each season. Last summer I decided to treat the holding tank with muriatic acid. When I went to empty it out the hose came off the nylon nipple screwed into the Marlon ball valve, pictures attached. As the muriatic acid would have had minimal contact time I suspect the vinegar has at least started the dissolving.

I was sceptical so I went off to look at Nylon chemical compatibility.

It is rated very poor, do not use under any circumstances, for acetic acid.
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:31   #28
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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Skip,
I'm a chemist, but not up on my urine scaling. This sounds like a great "at home" science project you could do on the boat.
Put urine in several glasses w/various dilutions of sea water, let sit for days and determine the amount of scaling.
Please report back w/your findings.


Bill O.
If you decide to do this test, please use Diesel exhaust fluid. It's Urea, and will give you results without having to handle pee.
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Old 24-01-2020, 11:42   #29
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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If you decide to do this test, please use Diesel exhaust fluid. It's Urea, and will give you results without having to handle pee.
its not the urea that causes the scaling its everything else
https://www.thoughtco.com/the-chemic...f-urine-603883
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Old 24-01-2020, 12:56   #30
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Re: Urine trouble now: scale from seawater and urine...

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(snippage)
No, we can't flush with fresh water, as much as I know that eliminates the potential issue.
Skip
While using fresh water will reduce the severity, it won't eliminate the issue. Uratic salts build up in fresh water urinal drains, as any plumber who's done commercial work can attest to. Many commercial office and other larger public buildings have to deal with this, and employ various chemicals (Uratic Salt Removers) to deal with it.

OF course, this is with urinals that may get used hundreds of times each day. On my one-head boat, I use vinegar.
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