Trying to fix a Katadyn water maker

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by davil

===============================================
tough call
visually my membrane looked better (uniform yellow and shiny)
and yet was no good
intriguing that tap water will go thru and sea water will not.
hate to be in your shoes as the cost of the membranes is so high but cannot think of any ways to call it.
have you try to run your fingernails so gentle?

OK good to know that visually it does look worst than yours.
I will change the 2x units.
May be I'm also suffering a pump problem. I will figure that out after I swap the membranes with brand new ones.

Scratching with my fingernail doesn't produce anything.

Thanks you all for the replies.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by HisseO

Hi all,

I'm trying to put back to life an PowerSurvivor-80 from PUR/Katadyn.
This is an old unit that I don't have any history on how it was maintained.
I'm struggling to identify if the failed part is the membrane or if the pump is not putting enough pressure.

Here is the tests I have done, you will understand why the answer to the above question seems not so obvious (at least for me):

1/ I'm running the test at home with tanks of Tap water and another tank of Sea water.
2/ Motor seems running fine and Amp consumption is inline with expectation
3/ Self priming works, and after couple of minutes no more bubble are returned from the membranes
4/ When running the PowerSurvivor from Tap water tank, The Product Freshwater Output is about 12L/h (3gal/h), inline with the specs.
5/ But when running the PowerSurvivor from Sea water tank, there is no product of Freshwater on output. eventually I get couple of drops after minutes, and those drops are salty.

I know that Salt water requires more pressure, but how can I figure out if I need to replace the membrane or if I need to service the pump?

Thanks in advance for your help.
FreD.

Sounds like at a bare minimum you're going to need new membranes. I checked on Google and the only one that came up for your model was this https://www.landfallnavigation.com/k...BoCTfcQAvD_BwE. Looks like it comes with six membranes and some other stuff which they don't specify. All the others listed were by other mfgs., whether they'd work or not in your unit, who knows? Tellie at Halden Marine knows these units pretty well. That looks like a $1,300 unit your have - so probably worth trying to fix, but hey, you can always use the extra membranes as long as your pump is good (and doesn't cost more to replace than the unit is worth)

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

Sounds like at a bare minimum you're going to need new membranes. I checked on Google and the only one that came up for your model was this https://www.landfallnavigation.com/k...BoCTfcQAvD_BwE. Looks like it comes with six membranes and some other stuff which they don't specify. All the others listed were by other mfgs., whether they'd work or not in your unit, who knows? Tellie at Halden Marine knows these units pretty well. That looks like a $1,300 unit your have - so probably worth trying to fix, but hey, you can always use the extra membranes as long as your pump is good (and doesn't cost more to replace than the unit is worth)

Hello, thank you but the link you provided is for 6x filters + seal kit for the pump.
I'm living in Europe, and have found SVB having the membranes on sale (400€ each).
Will update this thread when I have fixed this unit.

I'm still puzzled that it may not be only the membranes, because with fresh water source, it produce water. How could it be clogged so as not to let the salt water through and let the cold water through?
=> I'm suspecting the pump is also not putting enough pressure.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by HisseO

Hello, thank you but the link you provided is for 6x filters + seal kit for the pump.
I'm living in Europe, and have found SVB having the membranes on sale (400€ each).
Will update this thread when I have fixed this unit.

I'm still puzzled that it may not be only the membranes, because with fresh water source, it produce water. How could it be clogged so as not to let the salt water through and let the cold water through?
=> I'm suspecting the pump is also not putting enough pressure.

You've got me scratching my head here. Why would you pay 400 euros for one filter when you can get 6 for $414 US plus the seals (which you might need, your pump works, but not well)?. If I'm not mistaken, 400 Euros is about $500 US. These filters obviously don't last forever, which is probably why they're calling this the cruisers pack. Heck, by the time you buy two of them at that price (400 Euro) you might as well get a whole new kit. Back in the day I used to do some backpacking where a water filter is mandatory for fresh water contaminants. Katadyn was pretty much the gold standard but their replacement filters cost 75% of the cost for a new unit which really put me off. 400 Euros for one membrane sounds a bit fishy to me.

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

You've got me scratching my head here. Why would you pay 400 euros for one filter when you can get 6 for $414 US plus the seals (which you might need, your pump works, but not well)?. If I'm not mistaken, 400 Euros is about $500 US. These filters obviously don't last forever, which is probably why they're calling this the cruisers pack. Heck, by the time you buy two of them at that price (400 Euro) you might as well get a whole new kit. Back in the day I used to do some backpacking where a water filter is mandatory for fresh water contaminants. Katadyn was pretty much the gold standard but their replacement filters cost 75% of the cost for a new unit which really put me off. 400 Euros for one membrane sounds a bit fishy to me.

No intent to scratch your head here , but I'm afraid you are mixing Filter and Membrane.
Filter is 5 or 30 micron filtering cartridge that is fitted before the pump for preventing any debris to reach the pump/membrane.
Membrane is the expansive part that actually produces the fresh water. The picture I shared before are membranes, not the filters.

I can effectively find the membranes sold for about 320$ from the US, but then adding shipping + customs taxes + 20%VAT will bring it even higher than 400€
If someone has a good plan for getting those membranes at a better price in Europe, please share.

[Captain Bill]

I have a Katadyn 160E and I suspect the seals in the pump are dried out and the pump is not producing enough pressure. Fresh water takes virtually no pressure to pass through the membrane. I'm not saying your membranes are ok, but the pump pressure is the first problem. My pump slows and sounds different when producing high pressure. Does yours change sound and speed when you close the bypass valve? If not, then it is unlikely you are producing high pressure. A new seal kit is easy to put in. There is another thread on replacing the PS80 dual membrane with a single generic 2.5x14 inch membrane and pressure vessel for much less money than the cost of replacing just the membranes from Katadyn.


Power Survivor 80E alternate membrane options? in this subforum. I tried to link it but it does not seem to work.

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I have a Katadyn 160E and I suspect the seals in the pump are dried out and the pump is not producing enough pressure. Fresh water takes virtually no pressure to pass through the membrane. I'm not saying your membranes are ok, but the pump pressure is the first problem. My pump slows and sounds different when producing high pressure. Does yours change sound and speed when you close the bypass valve? If not, then it is unlikely you are producing high pressure. A new seal kit is easy to put in. There is another thread on replacing the PS80 dual membrane with a single generic 2.5x14 inch membrane and pressure vessel for much less money than the cost of replacing just the membranes from Katadyn.


Power Survivor 80E alternate membrane options? in this subforum. I tried to link it but it does not seem to work.

Hello Cap'n Bill, Yes I here a different sound when closing the valve, also it draws more amps and the pump slow down a bit. I feel it's fighting against pressure. but You are joining my thought that the pump may be not putting enough pressure. I will try to mount a gauge on the valve side and measure the pressure.
I may effectively first start to buy the service kit, that anyway is good to have as spare.

I had a look at the the link you provided, and it's not clear to me if one housing 2.5x14" membrane will produce the same amount of fresh water as the two 14" Katadyn membranes?
If so then effectively it looks interesting to do this modification!

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by HisseO

Hello Cap'n Bill, Yes I here a different sound when closing the valve, also it draws more amps and the pump slow down a bit. I feel it's fighting against pressure. but You are joining my thought that the pump may be not putting enough pressure. I will try to mount a gauge on the valve side and measure the pressure.
I may effectively first start to buy the service kit, that anyway is good to have as spare.

I had a look at the the link you provided, and it's not clear to me if one housing 2.5x14" membrane will produce the same amount of fresh water as the two 14" Katadyn membranes?
If so then effectively it looks interesting to do this modification!

The 14 inch membrane will produce the same amount of water. The katadyn membranes are smaller in diameter and have less surface area. The Katadyn 160 actually uses a 2.5x21 inch membrane rated at 300 GPD to produce 160 GPD. The 2.5x14 is rated at 150 GPD and will produce 80 GPD. Because these units use single piston pumps they are producing pressure only half the time and just produce slightly more than half the rating of the membrane.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by HisseO

No intent to scratch your head here , but I'm afraid you are mixing Filter and Membrane.
Filter is 5 or 30 micron filtering cartridge that is fitted before the pump for preventing any debris to reach the pump/membrane.
Membrane is the expansive part that actually produces the fresh water. The picture I shared before are membranes, not the filters.

I can effectively find the membranes sold for about 320$ from the US, but then adding shipping + customs taxes + 20%VAT will bring it even higher than 400€
If someone has a good plan for getting those membranes at a better price in Europe, please share.

My apologies, I meant membrane. It seems the popular option is to just replace the pressure vessel so you can use a lower cost membrane. You should contact Tellie before spending any more money on this - I'd hate to see you get burned on this, buying parts you don't need. Hopefully somebody makes an aftermarket replacement for the Katadyn membrane that's more affordable. Kind of reminds me of some of those computer printers I got for a cheap price just to find out the ink price was through the roof.

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

The 14 inch membrane will produce the same amount of water. The katadyn membranes are smaller in diameter and have less surface area. The Katadyn 160 actually uses a 2.5x21 inch membrane rated at 300 GPD to produce 160 GPD. The 2.5x14 is rated at 150 GPD and will produce 80 GPD. Because these units use single piston pumps they are producing pressure only half the time and just produce slightly more than half the rating of the membrane.

OK got it, thx.
Will first make sure the pump is is effectively pressuring at 800PSI, then will consider swapping the dual housing with a single one. It will obviously require to revise the plumbing...

[Captain Bill]

a

Originally Posted by HisseO

OK got it, thx.
Will first make sure the pump is is effectively pressuring at 800PSI, then will consider swapping the dual housing with a single one. It will obviously require to revise the plumbing...

Actually the plumbing might be the biggest problem you have in Europe These things were made in the US and have NPT fittings. The small U shaped tube on the input side of the pressure vessel was 1/4 NPT and so was the brine exit. The freshwater outlet is 1/8 npt. I'm not sure of the sizes on on the PS80. I've looked at a couple of 14" pressure vessels on line and it looks like the all use 1/4 ntp fittings for all the connections. Keep in mind the product water port is low pressure so even a plastic fitting will work there. If you go shopping for a pressure vessel make sure you get one rated for seawater and 1000 PSI.


One additional piece of advice: Don't use teflon tape on the high pressure fitting. It cannot take pressure that high, always use PTFE high pressure paste and make sure you get food/drinking water grade.

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

a


Actually the plumbing might be the biggest problem you have in Europe These things were made in the US and have NPT fittings. The small U shaped tube on the input side of the pressure vessel was 1/4 NPT and so was the brine exit. The freshwater outlet is 1/8 npt. I'm not sure of the sizes on on the PS80. I've looked at a couple of 14" pressure vessels on line and it looks like the all use 1/4 ntp fittings for all the connections. Keep in mind the product water port is low pressure so even a plastic fitting will work there. If you go shopping for a pressure vessel make sure you get one rated for seawater and 1000 PSI.


One additional piece of advice: Don't use teflon tape on the high pressure fitting. It cannot take pressure that high, always use PTFE high pressure paste and make sure you get food/drinking water grade.

Thank you so much for the extra advices.

You have indeed pointed to the problems that were initially pushing me to keep my vessels. those are effectively the same as the PS40, 1/2 NPT.
Now that I know that I need to replace 2 by one, the maths are more favorable for a vessel replacement. In that case I was thinking of keeping the existing 1/2" fitting with the tube and go with an adapter 1/4" NPT male -> 1/2" NPT female, something like this.


But first of all, will tear down the pump to see if I see any damages. Will order the maintenance kit.

[HisseO]

Good news, I believe I have found why the pump may not put enough pressure with Salt water: The PIP ring on the piston is cracked.

The rest of the pump don't appear to be in such bad shape.

I have ordered the repair kit (waiting to receive it). I will then clean, reassemble and test with my old containers. We will see ...

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

a
One additional piece of advice: Don't use teflon tape on the high pressure fitting. It cannot take pressure that high, always use PTFE high pressure paste and make sure you get food/drinking water grade.

Could you recommend a particular reference?

[HisseO]

Originally Posted by HisseO

Could you recommend a particular reference?

Replying myself, I believe I have found the right product:
Gebétanche eau GEB ref 3283981146081
This is a mix of anaerobic resin + PTFE.
Supports pressure > 200bars (290PSI)
Drinking water grade
Disassembly possible