The cult of the Proper Flanged Thru-hull

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hasn’t there been several problems with the plastic handles breaking off. I know one such incident.

Yes there were but those issues were resolved years ago.

[goboatingnow]

Good to know. I must as I said chat to an engineer friend changing out to plastic ( I use the term generically ). I’m interested to cut open his DZR brass ones that come out , boats about 16 years old. I wonder why he didn’t choose bronze. I think he feels the plastic ones will have less issue with getting stiff over time.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Flanged Marelon valves cannot be changed out at sea.

Yes they can - Not that you really want to change a seacock while the boat is in the water -- but you can. I've done it with someone else before. Plug the thruhull from below. Unscrew the screws from the backing plate on the inside and spin it off .

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Simple is always good when extra complexity is not required -- Mechanical Design 101..

Do not confuse more robust with extra complexity - Engineering 101

And really, a flanged base is not more complex. Its pretty simple .

[deblen]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Thanks I complete plumbed three houses over the years. Central central systems , hot cold domestics , waste et.

All my copper compressions use PTFE tape , actually use Ptfe “ gas “ tape

As yet I’m not aware of any leaks. The first house is 30 years old now.

I was trained by a plumber that used hemp and boss white. But the world has moved on

( note the tape is only used on the treads the olive still forms the primary seal )

Using tape on the threads is OK.
But I have often seen EU based posters & written articles that recommend using T Tape or other pipe thread sealant on the olive/ferrule itself.

Thanks/Len

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Only Beneteau USA ever released that nonsense letter. Nothing similar has ever been seen in Europe to my knowledge. From my understanding Beneteau USA wired 110vac boats to ABYC standards and this is an abomination as it encourages seawater fittings degradation

LOL Too funny LOLOL I'm on the world wide Jeanneau and Beneteau owners pages --- (I now own a French built Jeanneau )The people from Europe & ALL OVER have been complaining about how bad the quality of the ball valves are ....

So funny how far you are stretching by trying to blame in on North America's 110V LOL --- Funny that Sabre, Hinckley, Tartan, Morris, etc etc building boats don't have this problem with their thruhulls and seacocks LOL

LOL Try again

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by deblen

Using tape on the threads is OK.
But I have often seen EU based posters & written articles that recommend using T Tape or other pipe thread sealant on the olive/ferrule itself.

Thanks/Len

Then they are wrong. I don’t even smear the olive with boss white.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tsenator

LOL Too funny LOLOL I'm on the world wide Jeanneau and Beneteau owners pages --- (I now own a French built Jeanneau )The people from Europe & ALL OVER have been complaining about how bad the quality of the ball valves are ....

So funny how far you are stretching by trying to blame in on North America's 110V LOL --- Funny that Sabre, Hinckley, Tartan, Morris, etc etc building boats don't have this problem with their thruhulls and seacocks LOL

LOL Try again

Sure , so every yard is full of such boats getting their seacocks changed. The local chandleries must be jammed packed with bronze replacement fittings

Err no, this is demonstrably not the case. In fact none of my very big chain chandleries ( 5 in this town ) have true bronze fittings much less flanged sea cocks.

Clearly these people might complain but clearly (a) there are not sinking and (b) they are not queued up in yards getting them replaced cause the chandleries would be chock a block with bronzed fittings ( with without flanges)

Given most owners can’t tell a good fittings from a bad one anyway and simply parrot “ brass is bad , bronze is good” forgetting even groco is brass

I’ve seen more people force a seized ball valve and break the shaft and then blame the fittings !!!


And yes ABYC AC/DC and metals bonding is a disaster in grp boats and is designed to place safety and weakness in the NEC above underwater fitting life.ABYC only discovered RCD protection recently yet these devices have been on European boats for three decades.

If you bond to ABYC you definitely need bronze and very good bronze at that.

Why don’t you visit me over the winter and I’ll introduce you to 30 boats. You can ask each one if they replaced their sea cocks due to actual de-zincification.

Everyone that has I buy you a pint. Other way you buy me one

I know who will be staggering back to his boat.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hasn’t there been several problems with the plastic handles breaking off. I know one such incident.

Actually yes - I personally know of one too , but it was 20 years ago. It was on the "smaller handle after market" forespar version. Not the Manufactuer Version. I'm not sure if they changed the design. It was just the handle and the Seacock did not leak. Kind of like breaking a handle off of a metal ball valve or spinning the part attached to the ball in a metal ball valve. It was not on the "Tru_Design" but on the Forespar lower end version.

For those that don't know, there are two different types of Forespar Marelon Seacocks the smaller handled "after market" smaller tabbed version and the much more robust version that are what the manufacturers put in with bigger more robust handle -- personally I would not use the "aftermarket Version" for anything too important, just source the "manufacturers version" . They might have upgraded the design though.

(On the right is the one I would avoid)

I have also replaced some ball valves with the Tru_Design. Extremely robust design. Very smooth action, very large handle. The biggest downside is they are quite large for the same size of metal or Forespar and might not fit in tight spaces.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Err no, this is demonstrably not the case. In fact none of my very big chain chandleries ( 5 in this town ) have true bronze fittings much less flanged sea cocks.

Err - Yes - that is the case --- Just google Beneteau Seacock Issue or Jeanneau seacock issues - Click on the Links and see how many responded LOL

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-217676.html

https://jeanneau.proboards.com/threa...e-hull-failure

etc etc etc etc etc

LITERALLY Hundreds upon Hundreds of boat owners have complained about how bad their thru-hull plumbing lasts -- Of course they check and swap them out and don't let their boats sink, but almost everyone I know with a Benny/Jenneau boat older than 5 years is planning on swapping out their valves for better quality .

There is a REASON why the president of Beneteau had to write a letter about it !

Go ahead, discount it and ignore it & stick your head in the sand LOL The proof is out there whether you want to look or not

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’ve seen more people force a seized ball valve and break the shaft and then blame the fittings !!! .

BAHAHAAAAAA I just noticed you wrote this ... TOO FUNNY LOL

If you can actually break the shaft of a thru hull by just torqueing the handle then that PROVES its a piece of crap ! LOL And if you've seen that a lot then it PROVES MY POINT ! I'd LOVE to see you try and torque a groco seacock by hand and break it !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb...ature=emb_logo

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tsenator

Err - Yes - that is the case --- Just google Beneteau Seacock Issue or Jeanneau seacock issues - Click on the Links and see how many responded LOL



https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-217676.html



https://jeanneau.proboards.com/threa...e-hull-failure



etc etc etc etc etc



LITERALLY Hundreds upon Hundreds of boat owners have complained about how bad their thru-hull plumbing lasts -- Of course they check and swap them out and don't let their boats sink, but almost everyone I know with a Benny/Jenneau boat older than 5 years is planning on swapping out their valves for better quality .



There is a REASON why the president of Beneteau had to write a letter about it !



Go ahead, discount it and ignore it & stick your head in the sand LOL The proof is out there whether you want to look or not

Leaving aside cruiserforum as it’s not a non English representable forum

I’m surrounded literally surrounded by Bavaria’s, Jeanneaus and Beneteau. 600 in the marina , 6000 in the immediate 20km area. Nine boatyards , 1000s of charter boats. Every marine trade known to man ,

I’m here on and off for nine months of the year

I’m in a winter groups that meets. About 60 owners

Only one has ever mentioned a concern over de-zincification

Where they are replaced it’s almost ALWAYS poorer quality than thd original equipment cause most owners no nothing about what makes a good brass sea cock. So they often end up with domestic plumbing valves !!

I’ve seen people blame poor seacocks on lots of things mostly because they didn’t service them.

Seriously if this was a systemic problem the yards would be booked for months flat with replacement projects and I’d be seeing holes in hulls in yards everywhere

Funnily that’s but it not at all like that. Maybe owners are whinging but they ain’t acting

[goboatingnow]

From the clearly English orientated jeanneau Forum you referenced i did a full forum search on the topic , It’s not a big forum


Yes a few are replacing. Mainly the ball valve gets stuck.

Eg

“Last summer I inspected one of the 9y old original thru hulls on my 2008 45DS, it was in good condition, even the tail seemed to be fine. “


“ast thorough check was in 2011 after 3 seasons afloat (3x6 months in water). The engine cooling inlet looked perfect (http://www.mistroma.com/SeacockEngine.html) but I did replace the ball-valve in the forward head as it was quite sticky (but otherwise fine).”




Since it’s an English forum. Mostly it’s a few brits and Americans.

Some are replacing but it’s not “ hundreds “ some have seized some have concerns over faulty marina AC

By the way as confirmed on that forum jeanneau uses bronze mushrooms and DZR CR marked ball valves

I followed several threads some seem to simply replace like with like which seems odd. Some seem to favour plastic and a very few seem to refit bronze. Strange.

Certainly not “ hundreds “ in fact in the threads the same few faces show up repeatedly

[Bowdrie]

I think that the flanged adaptor that Groco makes is excellent, the ability to switch-out a valve, or remove the valve and cap the adaptor is a good idea.
I just wish that they, (or someone else,) would make a real tapered plug bronze valve that would screw on to the adaptor.
Like a real seacock without the flange.
No matter the make, the weak point on ball valves is always the diminutive stem, none of them are a real seacock, modern advertising just calls them that.
When I win the Lottery, I shall start a company that makes real seacocks like the ones by Spartan, as well as ones that can be used on the Groco adaptor.
Oh, and one other product; a re-introduction of the Skipper toilet.
Modern CNC machinery should be able to produce such items at a reasonable cost.
I'd probably go broke, just too many bean counters.
Like the old adage. "How do you make a small fortune in the marine business?"
Answer, "You start out with a large fortune".
To paraphrase an ancient saying by the United Fruit and Steamship Company.
'Bronze is best, plastic is a pest".

[goboatingnow]

No need the best seacocks are made by maestrini in Italy



All full bronze pricey at € 450 a pop

They also make high quality certified DZR fittings