plumbing broken -- underway on delivery voyage

[niftyc]

The first few days of owning this boat are turning out to be more exciting than I was hoping. We bought a 63' custom steel trawler-style boat in Northern Canada and have hired a delivery captain to import it into the USA via the St. Lawrence. Short story: The delivery captain is reporting all drains are backing up and we are trying to figure out what to do. I am not aboard and I am communicating with the delivery captain by phone. I am wondering if anyone has ideas to help me problem-solve this.

Whole story:

The boat has been stored on the hard for three years. Prior to departure seller was to fill water tanks, empty the waste tank. When the delivery captain arrived on the day of departure, he noticed the shower pan in the aft head was filled with debris. Oily sludge, luckily odorless. Big surprise: The freshwater tank was empty, the waste tank was full. The freshwater tank had apparently drained into the waste tank over the past few days. None of the faucets were open. The seller sent out a plumber.

The boat has integral steel tanks with the water forward, then the fuel, then waste aft. There is no grey water tank.

The plumber checked faucets and lines (several hours) and reported that they were fine but the freshwater tank was plumbed THROUGH the waste tank. A sloped stainless steel feed line runs from the water tanks forward THROUGH the fuel tank, then the waste tank, kind of bisecting them, to the water pump in the engine room aft. (I am not a plumber but this sure seems like a bad idea.)

As all other faucets and lines checked out, his conclusion was that this feed line must have failed INSIDE the waste tank, explaining the drain from water tank to waste tank. He cut out this pipe and indeed found a hairline crack. He replaced with hydraulic hose, his recommendation.

Our delivery captain got underway. He is now calling me about 70 nm downstream from Montreal. He reports all drains are blocked and everything comes up in the aft shower pan (the lowest drain). He has a shop vac, plumbing snake, buckets, bleach, and a plunger aboard.

Plunger did not do much. He tried to remove material from the drain with the shop vac. He got some out but he found that the stuff coming up looked very old and dense and dried out. After a while he found nothing else came up from the drain, but it was still plugged. He next tried the plumbing snake but found "something very hard." Not sure if he's hit a bend or a blockage. He is now trying putting hot water down the drain, letting it soak, cool -- then vacuuming it out and repeating.

My thinking was that he should put in at Montreal for assistance but I have not encountered this situation before so don't know what assistance to ask for. Just call a plumber?

I'm also thinking that the issue is likely that the winterization was improperly done for the waste and water tanks. Northern Canada is very cold and freezing in the water lines and waste tank could explain this. The old material is evidence that the waste tank was left sitting with waste in it, it should have been emptied for winter.

All of the metals on the boat have alloy rings that allow welding with dissimilar metals so I am not suspecting electrolysis. The stainless steel pipe had these rings on it.

Waste plumbing is PVC, except the stainless steel feed line to the pump (with one part of that line now replaced by hydraulic hose).

I have done quite a bit of reading on this and other forums about plumbing issues aboard but it would be helpful if anyone has been in this situation and has ideas. Also it would be good to know if my "poor winterization" theory "holds water" (ha ha) or if this sounds like some other problem.

[Manateeman]

I don’t like to be the bad news guy but I’d be very concerned about the vessel taking on water. The first concern you have as a captain is to make sure the vessel does not sink. I’d close off every seacock and pay a lot of attention to the any water in the bilge. I’d buy a new semi trash pump, a suction hose kit with strainer and discharge hose and enough good gas to run it for a day or two.
A delivery captain doesn’t need to take a shower, do laundry or wash dishes.
He can pee over the side and buy a bucket, some peat moss and a big roll of trash bags. Good grief, this is not a situation where anyone can say do X, Y or Z...Thinking this over...maybe you ought to just get this boat to a boatyard ASAP and haul it until you can find someone who can do the work required before going back in the water. I’d be concerned anyone who does not know what they are doing could make matters worse...a lot worse.
Sorry you are having a bad day.
Please keep us posted.
Mark and the manatee crew.

[Deep Blue Water]

Was the boat surveyed?

[peghall]

I've seen a lot of "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???" plumbing horror stories in the 30 years I've spent in marine sanitation and plumbing, but I have NEVER heard a story of a plumbing job that even came close to being as gawdawful as this one...it gives a whole new meaning to the term "HOLY S#!+.


Did the buyer bother to have the boat surveyed before buying it?


--Peggie

[niftyc]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I’d be very concerned about the vessel taking on water

I think there must be some misunderstanding -- the vessel is not taking on water. If there is some reason I should be concerned about a blocked waste line leading to taking on water please let me know. My day isn't that bad so far, the delivery captain has clocked 350 nm so far and reports all systems running well except this blocked waste line.

Originally Posted by Deep Blue Water

Was the boat surveyed?

Yes I have my hands on three surveys, one done by the seller, two by me. I re-did my first survey with someone else as the first one was not thorough. No indication of a problem. I called the surveyor but he explained in great detail there is no way any survey would have caught this.

I don't know enough to say if I should believe him or not -- but what he says seems reasonable:

The cracked pipe was a slow leak and it needed a full water tank and several days to show itself. Toilets, showers, and sinks were tested during the survey and they drained. It could be that the blockage is far enough back that you need to run more water through there before it starts backing up.

[Manateeman]

Hi. The third paragraph down following the title the whole story was the description which alarmed me. I’ve never seen any layout in which lines go through tanks. Under, over, next to, but not inside.
Sorry if you became upset but the idea of running snakes into lines where you are not certain of the layout of the piping does not sound like a great idea to me.
Let’s both agree checking the bilge is a good idea.
I’ve built a lot of boats and have seen a lot of very unusual ways in which seawater can enter the hull. On commercial boats, a big dewatering pump is standard and routinely tested. Good idea to carry one in any case.
Your description of the seller put up a red flag as well as the idea of calling a “plumber” as this kind of implied house plumber... very few have a lot of marine experience... members of the engine department or boatbuilders rarely use this term. I apologize if I pushed the alarm button but that’s the red flags I saw.
I read your post to a skilled member of my crew before posting and they were exactly as concerned. I hope you figure out where things go in your boat and that your captain has a safe and uneventful voyage.
Again, I apologize for alarming you in any way. Nothing like that was intended.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew.

[niftyc]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I’ve never seen any layout in which lines go through tanks. Under, over, next to, but not inside.

I agree this is definitely concerning me. In this case I can only think the reasoning must have been that the tanks are integral and extend the full beam. They're big -- all combined are ~2900 gallons. So there is no "under" or "next to" as that's the exterior hull. Piping going up would enter the living space as the top of the tanks are the floor. But (as a non-expert) it still seems like there must be some way to handle routing these pipes "up" that would be better than this way.

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Your description of the seller put up a red flag as well as the idea of calling a “plumber” as this kind of implied house plumber...

Sorry for this false alarm. The delivery captain tells me that he thought the guy was a marine pipefitter. He was sent out by the shipyard.

[Manateeman]

Interesting...well it does maximize the volume. Where the pipe or pipes pass through the fuel tank, did they weld or use bulkhead fittings or something else.
You might want to post it on Boatdesign.net. Fuel tanks and any fittings get the Coast Guard “inspected vessel “guys all torqued up but fishing and private vessels do not have such stringent restrictions. I guess you’ll figure out the blockage issue and it just may have been freezing...just like you guessed.
Thanks for being understanding. My manatee crew is always up to some engineering shenanigans :facepalm. Solar pizza oven. Micro brewery with a Fermentation tank using the turbo waste heat. No wonder I see red everywhere.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark

[Tetepare]

I want to see photos of pipe passing thru a fuel tank.

[niftyc]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I want to see photos of pipe passing thru a fuel tank.

[bstreep]

Shower drains on boats are particularly prone to clogs. Houses too. A combo of hair, conditioner, oily soap, etc. make for a fantastic soup. Then you remember that they go days/weeks/months without use, dry out, and then ANOTHER season of use. You quickly have a huge mess.

Stack on top of this that it's a boat from the COLD, and it's easy to see how there could be leaks/clogs, etc. A
As others have said, get the boat home, and then just bite the bullet and replace ALL of your drain/waste lines. It's a nasty job, but then you know you should be good for 10 years or so.

[niftyc]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Interesting...well it does maximize the volume. Where the pipe or pipes pass through the fuel tank, did they weld or use bulkhead fittings or something else.

I can't find a good surveyor's photo that shows this. The yard guy says it should have been welded with the alloy fitting preventing electrolysis, but he's probably reciting the yard's construction standards or possibly remembering 20 years ago, so it would still be good to check myself. I am not on the boat now.

[captstu]

Is the gray water through hull valve open?

Have you tried sneaking a piece of tubing back through the gray hole through hall from underwater and running pressure water back into the gray water system? If that water shows up in your lowest shower pan, you have what I think of as a one-way clog, usually a bunch of hair. You can clear that by gradually increasing the pressure on the tubing that you snaked I’m through the gray water through hall.

Look for the easy problems first, often the gray water through hall is plugged with a rag for winter storage that would allow water to seep out by keeping the chewing animals from getting in. If you’re through haul snake hose it’s a jam 8 inches or so in from the outside that is likely the winter time plug.

[Bill Seal]

Not applicable here, but it would seem to me the best way to run potable water through a waste tank would be to run a hose inside a 1.5" conduit welded into the ends of the tank.

[Captain Bligh]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

Not applicable here, but it would seem to me the best way to run potable water through a waste tank would be to run a hose inside a 1.5" conduit welded into the ends of the tank.

Yes, I have seen this many times on land based systems. Tanks have a conduit welded in the tank and the fluid pipe passes through the conduit with space to spare on either side of the pipe wall (air gap). This is typical and what I expect we are looking at in that photo.