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08-05-2017, 16:00
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Plumbing and head question
Ok, so this is the last system to overhaul on my boat. The head looks like a porta-potty, but has a built in 4.5 gal tank. From the bottom of the head is a hose (1 1/2" I think) that leads to a "T". From the "T" one hose (1 1/2) leads to the pumpout cap on deck. The other side of the "T" leads to a manual pump and then to 1 1/2 gate valve attached to a through hole.
The gate valve is frozen in the closed position and will not turn. Just to add to the fun, the "T" is wrapped in duck tape.
I have only sailed here in AZ in a lake, and never use the head. The marina has very nice restrooms and showers. However, planning a trip to the Gulf of Mexico this summer and want to be legal and the head be useable.
While, I am still learning/ reading I have a couple questions. 1) must I have a lockable "Y" valve? 2) if I install the lockable "Y" valve, do I need the gate valve?
Any help on the system as a whole would not hurt, if you have any advice.
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08-05-2017, 16:08
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Maine
Boat: Sabre 34-2
Posts: 48
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Re: Plumbing and head question
Photos would help. How does the output from the head get into the tank? In any case, the gate valve is not acceptable for a thru-hull, and the holding tank for any sort of cruising in waters where you can't dump it is very small. Ultimately, you need to have a system that takes a non-accidental event to dump the tank into the water. A tagged out Y-valve or a seacock with the handle removed would be ok so far as I know.
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08-05-2017, 16:49
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,307
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Re: Plumbing and head question
So-so, easy short term solution: Since the gate valve is closed, plug it as well and only have pump out for your head. (Or manual dump in emergency)
I think I used to own the type of head you are talking about with the exact same configuration. There are several things I don't like about that system. One is, if it's the kind of head I'm thinking about, you can never suck all the sewage out, so you will have odor problems and cleaning problems over time. Every time someone opens the trap door to use it, you'll be letting the odor from the sewage on the bottom out. It's a great way to convince crew to never cruise with you again.
Secondly, I don't like having to pump out a holding tank with a hand pump. It's extra work, an extra part to fail and extra attachments to leak. I much prefer a gravity discharge when possible.
Third - Obviously the gate valve.
After one cruise with such as system, I pulled it out, replaced it with a traditional marine head and holding tank placed just above the waterline for easy direct discharge where legal and appropriate. I placed an inspection port on the top directly above the out take, in the event it ever needed snaking or cleaning out. When in U.S. waters I secured the seacock in the closed position. No y-valves needed. The closed sea cock created a direct tank to pump out. I should have just done that from the get go rather than mess around trying to make that porta potty like head work. (I forget what they're called)
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08-05-2017, 18:12
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I believe the tank is built into the head. The little head sets on the deck with a hose from the bottom, lead through the floor to the V-berth. I'm not sure I have room for a holding tank.
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08-05-2017, 18:15
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I'm not sure how to rotate the image. It's upside down
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08-05-2017, 18:18
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Re: Plumbing and head question
Overview. Again upside down. But hope it helps. Like I said, don't use it, so left it for last. But, want to be legal and have a working system.
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09-05-2017, 05:04
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Maine
Boat: Sabre 34-2
Posts: 48
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Re: Plumbing and head question
You'll have to start all over and likely need to haul the boat to replace the seacock. A gravity feed to empty the holding tank is great if you can do it, but whale pumps are pretty robust and a good option if you can't get the tank above the water line. Here is a good place to start with thinking of how to go about this:
Installing a Head by Don Casey - BoatTECH - BoatUS
If you can avoid it, don't use a bladder-type tank for the holding tank - they can leak as I learned the hard way.
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09-05-2017, 10:49
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Rafael, Ca.
Boat: Gaff rigged Ketch[Spray]37' on deck
Posts: 602
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Re: Plumbing and head question
The gate valve should be replaced with a 1/4 turn valve, gate valves do not belong on a boat, why ?, because the GATE inside the valve housing deteriorates [brass] and no longer functions, your case.
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09-05-2017, 11:21
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Daytona Beach, Florida
Boat: 1988 Wilbur 34
Posts: 296
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Re: Plumbing and head question
"While, I am still learning/ reading I have a couple questions. 1) must I have a lockable "Y" valve? 2) if I install the lockable "Y" valve, do I need the gate valve? "
Yes, by all means provide a lock on your "Y" valve. Just a loose fitting zip tie will suffice. It cost me almost $500 in fines plus a lot of wasted time as the result of not having mine locked... even though it was properly closed and efforts by the inspecting officer to pump dye through the system were ineffective.
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09-05-2017, 16:34
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queensland, Australia
Boat: None at present--between vessels. Ex Piver Loadstar 12.5 metres
Posts: 1,476
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I dismantled the gate valve on mine, it was jammed anyway. My system is an electric macerator type head, and instead of the Y-valve installed TWO simple nylon gate valves. One hose as before leads to the holding tank via a siphon-breaker, the other to a separate siphon breaker mounted high as I can get it, thence to a through-hull below the waterline.
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09-05-2017, 17:02
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Re: Plumbing and head question
nautical62---- I am leaning towards capping the through hole and losing the value and going with straight pump out. I can see where you are coming from with the use and smell issue. Yet, we do not use the head in our normal sailing habits. But, with the extend trip this summer I would like to have a working system. So trying to balance cost vs usefulness of buy a whole new head and system.
doug1957--- I really do not want to start over.  After reading your post, I started pricing hose, head, valves, fittings. Not, sure I want to expend that much money for a week of sailing. Can you tell what kind of pump that is in the pic? It actually appears newer (like the grey hoses), the white hose and "T" look to be very old. FYI, the boat is on a trailer right now, so anything I can do from the bottom would easy right now.
Dougtiff--- I was think ball valve instead of the gate, but if I go with the locking "Y" do I need a valve there?
Seighlor--- I read something similar to your story, which made me start looking and post here on CF. I really don't want to spend $500 on fines, I would rather put it into being legal.
Mike Banks---- putting in a macerator pump in the system remove the locking requirement? Would your set up, past USCG inspection?
In the end, clearly I need something done. But, really do not have a ton of money to spend. I find myself wondering if PVC or nylon valves would work, then think "this is the last system I want failing." I would either end up taking on water or dumping waste into the bilge, not good either way.
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09-05-2017, 19:36
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#12
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,122
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I've been following this, trying to decide whether to jump in...
You have a 24' boat...that already provides very limited storage space for anything you need/want to store aboard...so the last thing you need to do is give up 25% or more of it to a marine toilet--which doesn't take up much space but does require a considerable amount of maintenance--holding tank and related plumbing when a tidy little self-contained system will provide everything that does and more.
So I suggest you take a long hard look at an "MSD" version portapotty...the "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it's designed to be permanently installed ("permanently" just means it has more robust hold down clamps than portable units) and has the fittings installed for a pumpout hose and vent line, which is all the plumbing needed. The 5-6 gallon models hold 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least 35 gal tank to hold that many from any marine toilet...and the potty needs -0- maintenance except for a bucket of water down it when you pump out to rinse out the tank. The right tank product will keep it totally odor free. If you want the ability to dump it, just put a y-valve in the pumpout line and run a hose to manual diaphragm pump and thru-hull. Totally legal in all waters. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a marine toilet and holding tank with none of the hassle for no more than $300....AND you get to keep ALL your storage space.
The two best ones are the Dometic/SeaLand 965 MSD SeaLand 965 MSD and the Thetford 550P MSD Thetford 550P MSD on Defender (I have no connection to Defender, only showing their listings because they have excellent product descriptions, often better than the mfrs...please do your own shopping).
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstei
__________________
© 2025 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author: "NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
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10-05-2017, 06:30
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Maine
Boat: Sabre 34-2
Posts: 48
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I like Peggie's answer. That eliminates most of your problems. From what I could see, that hose is not up to spec for below the waterline connections and anytime there's a hole in the bottom of the boat, a seacock needs to be there. A Y-valve won't save you if there's a leak between the Y-valve and the hole in the hull. Or a leaking Y-valve for that matter. The only thing that may be re-usable is the pump.
Self-composting toilets may be another option. There's lots of commentary on those on this site.
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10-05-2017, 12:28
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Prescott, AZ
Boat: American Mariner 24'
Posts: 138
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I like Peggie's answer too. What about, one of the units listed, new hoses from head to pump out on deck, bypass blackwater discharge. In other words, from head to deck only. Remove all old hoses etc... (I would leave the hand pump mounted, but not connected) Remove, gate valve and replace with ball valve and cap/plug the open end?
I know this would remove the ability to dump into water, but like I said most of my sailing is in a lake so I cant dump there and this summer I will be one week coastal sailing and not sure if I will or would be in a position to dump then either. Beside, the two marinas I am looking at for a slip for that week have pump outs.
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10-05-2017, 13:10
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#15
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,122
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Re: Plumbing and head question
I like Peggie's answer too.
Glad you do!
What about, one of the units listed, new hoses from head to pump out on deck, bypass blackwater discharge. In other words, from head to deck only. Remove all old hoses etc...
Yep...remove everything
(I would leave the hand pump mounted, but not connected)
Why? You can't use it and besides, it's prob'ly not working anyway... So unless you just want to plant geraniums in it, get rid of it too.
Remove, gate valve and replace with ball valve and cap/plug the open end?
You definitely want to replace the gate valve with a proper ball valve, but I wouldn't run any plumbing to that thru-hull until/unless you start spending enough time in open ocean at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US coastline (which where you'd have to be to dump a tank legally) to make it worthwhile to have the ability to dump the tank. If/when that day comes, it's an easy job to retrofit a y-valve, some hose and a pump in the pumpout line.
Meanwhile, the simpler the system, the better.
__________________
© 2025 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author: "NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
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