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Old 03-09-2019, 19:35   #1
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Need help with head and hoses

Hi folks,

Today, I went over the head and associated plumbing in my newly acquired 1987 Sabre 34. There is a constant foul odor in the bathroom and the v-berth and I had planned to change all plumbing and clean out the tank during the upcoming winter, however, after reviewing the various hoses and their lengths I think I will have to make some more changes.

Please review the attached photo, it is obviously not to scale however the lengths and their relative positions to each other are pretty accurate. I have colored the hoses to give a better idea as they cross each other as shown. Also, the hoses don't run as straight as shown in the photo, they pass through the under-sink area in the bathroom and then behind the port-side drawers in the v-berth.

The thing that bothers me the most is after using the toilet the waste has to go through 12 feet of 2" hose before it reaches the tank! And there is only 6" of space between the Y-valve and the tank!

Another thing that confuses me is why is the Y-valve before the holding tank? There is no way to empty out the tank if we go offshore, obviously, we can dump the waste directly from the toilet.

The pump-out hose that comes out of the tank is not all the way at the bottom leaving some waste in the tank at all times.

The top of the holding tank has great access and I should be able to do modifications, please tell me how best to solve my problem.

Thanks.
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Old 03-09-2019, 19:52   #2
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

If you are mostly cruising in coastal waters, Iíd remove the y-valve and always pump into the tank. I would put a tee in the discharge hose and run a new hose to a diaphragm pump which is then connected to the seacock. This would allow you to empty the tank overboard where legal.

If the tank is above the waterline you might be able to gravity drain without a pump.

Be sure the vent line is clear. A restricted vent line can cause odors. You want air to get to the sewage.

Use Raritan or Trident 103 hose. Both very odor resistant. Raritan hose is more expensive but very flexible.

Buy Peggie Hallís book for more and probably better advice.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-B...98623569&psc=1
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Old 03-09-2019, 19:59   #3
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

If I were plumbing it, I'd put the y-valve immediately after the toilet pump...no loop unless you also want to be able to flush directly overboard. I'd install a new inlet fitting on the top of the tank--actually pretty easy to do, thanks to a li'l gizmo called the Uniseal UNISEAL . A threaded plug--available from the plumbing department in most big box hardware stores--wrapped in plenty of teflon tape seals the existing inlet. I'd also put TWO new discharge fittings in the top of the tank, with diptubes inside the tank--one to the deck pumpout fitting, the other to the overboard discharge pump and thru-hull. This eliminates the y-valve. There should be a loop between that pump and the thru-hull. One more new fitting on the top of the tank: a 1" vent line going straight to the thru-hull. Replace the existing "vent" thru-hull with an open bulkhead or "mushroom" thru-hull.


You're welcome to contact me directly via email if you want to discuss in more detail than is practical in a forum discussion.


--Peggie
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Old 03-09-2019, 20:03   #4
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

I think you meant Trident 101/102 (identical except for color...101 is black, 102 has a white skin on it.), Parks. And thanks for suggesting my book to him!


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Old 03-09-2019, 20:10   #5
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Thanks HopCar.

While sitting in the boat today I thought of the same thing - to get rid of the Y-valve and connect the discharge hose directly to the tank. It will take a few years before we head offshore but your idea of putting a tee out of the tank for overboard discharge is great, and yes, the tank is above the waterline.

Funny you mentioned the vent line, I just posted a question in Sabre owners group about it - I have 2 vent lines (one from the holding tank and one from the water tanks) going forward out of the v-berth, however, there is only 1 vent fitting in the anchor locker, I couldn't find the other one and the enclosed bulkhead prevents me from investigating further. I wonder though, shouldn't lack of proper ventilation prevent pump-out? I ask this because I was able to pump out the holding tank 2 weeks ago.

Is this the Raritan hose you are talking about?
https://www.amazon.com/Raritan-Sanif...gateway&sr=8-1

Thanks a lot on Peggie Hall's book, I will definitely get a copy.

-Darshan
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Old 03-09-2019, 20:30   #6
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Wow, getting a response from Peggie Hall herself, actually I was just going through your book's description on Amazon!

Peggie, why do you recommend putting the y-valve immediately after the toilet, connecting the toilet directly to the tank is not preferable? And I saw the Uniseal fitting online but how do I connect a hose to that?

I like the idea of getting rid of the y-valve and having 2 separate discharge hoses. Can you suggest what kind of dip tubes to use?

I completely lost you on the vent line - are you saying there should be a separate (from existing) vent line going out? The vent line is going to the anchor locker (well, I am not sure which vent line, see my previous post) - is that not enough, does it have to go to a thru-hull?

I would definitely like to contact you via email, please PM me your email ID. I will likely go through your book first so as not to appear completely stupid.

Thanks a lot for helping.

-Darshan
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Old 03-09-2019, 20:41   #7
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Btw, I just bought your book, coming in 2 days.
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Old 03-09-2019, 21:25   #8
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Quote:
Originally Posted by peghall View Post
I think you meant Trident 101/102 (identical except for color...101 is black, 102 has a white skin on it.), Parks. And thanks for suggesting my book to him!


--Peggie
Yup, Iíve been retired too long. Iím forgetting part numbers.
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Old 03-09-2019, 21:41   #9
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Darshan, yes Raritan Saniflex is excellent hose. The Trident 101 / 102 is equally good but not as flexible.

Peggie’s suggestion to suck the sewage out the top of the tank is a good one.
If you don’t want to go to that trouble, at least put a valve where the sewage comes out the bottom. That makes it a lot easier to service the discharge hose and pump.

Figure out where the vent hose is going. It should be venting to the outside of the boat. Large vent lines help get air in the tank which encourages the good bacteria.
Lack of air encourages stinky bacteria. Peggie’s book will tell you about this.
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Old 03-09-2019, 21:57   #10
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

To send me an email, just click on my name at the left of my posts. The first two options are "send a PM" and "send an email"...select email.

why do you recommend putting the y-valve immediately after the toilet, connecting the toilet directly to the tank is not preferable?

I didn't do good job of editing that paragraph. You'd only put a y-valve in the toilet discharge line IF you want to be able to flush the toilet directly overboard. No y-valve needed if you're only flushing into the tank. And I just saw your reply to HopCar saying that your tank is above the waterline. If it's entirely above waterline, it should drain overboard via gravity, so no overboard discharge pump will be needed, nor a second discharge with diptube 'cuz the discharge will be IN the bottom of the tank.

And I saw the Uniseal fitting online but how do I connect a hose to that?

A piece about 6" long of schedule 80 PVC becomes the hose fitting. And btw...in you first post you said your hoses are 2". 1.5" is the standard size for toilet discharge and tank discharge hoses. I suspect you're using the OUTER diameter to get 2". Hose sizes always use the INNER diameter. That's because hose thicknesses can vary widely. Hose FITTINGS always use the OUTER diameter...so you'd want a piece of PVC that has a 1.5" outer diameter to fit tightly inside a 1.5" hose. (I'll help you sort all that out in more detail).

I completely lost you on the vent line - are you saying there should be a separate (from existing) vent line going out? The vent line is going to the anchor locker (well, I am not sure which vent line, see my previous post) - is that not enough, does it have to go to a thru-hull?

There has to be a vent line--prob'ly only one that's most likely 5/8"--coming off the tank. Since the inlet fitting on the tank is on on one end (though why it's on the opposite end from the toilet is mystery to me!), I'm guessing the vent is on that end too. The vent fitting will be at the top. If the vent line goes only into the anchor locker, that's illegal. USCG regs require that all waste tanks--toilet waste and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat because waste can generate methane as it breaks down and methane is flammable.

And I saw the Uniseal fitting online but how do I connect a hose to that?

If it's your holding tank that vents into the chain locker, that's not legal. USCG regs require that all waste tanks--toilet and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat because waste can generate methane as it breaks down and methane is flammable.

I'll watch for your email.

--Peggie
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:37   #11
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Quote:
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at least put a valve where the sewage comes out the bottom.
HopCar, by this you mean putting a valve on the hose with a handle that can be opened and closed (like the y-valve)?
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:46   #12
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Quote:
Originally Posted by peghall View Post
To send me an email, just click on my name at the left of my posts. The first two options are "send a PM" and "send an email"...select email.

why do you recommend putting the y-valve immediately after the toilet, connecting the toilet directly to the tank is not preferable?

I didn't do good job of editing that paragraph. You'd only put a y-valve in the toilet discharge line IF you want to be able to flush the toilet directly overboard. No y-valve needed if you're only flushing into the tank. And I just saw your reply to HopCar saying that your tank is above the waterline. If it's entirely above waterline, it should drain overboard via gravity, so no overboard discharge pump will be needed, nor a second discharge with diptube 'cuz the discharge will be IN the bottom of the tank.

And I saw the Uniseal fitting online but how do I connect a hose to that?

A piece about 6" long of schedule 80 PVC becomes the hose fitting. And btw...in you first post you said your hoses are 2". 1.5" is the standard size for toilet discharge and tank discharge hoses. I suspect you're using the OUTER diameter to get 2". Hose sizes always use the INNER diameter. That's because hose thicknesses can vary widely. Hose FITTINGS always use the OUTER diameter...so you'd want a piece of PVC that has a 1.5" outer diameter to fit tightly inside a 1.5" hose. (I'll help you sort all that out in more detail).

I completely lost you on the vent line - are you saying there should be a separate (from existing) vent line going out? The vent line is going to the anchor locker (well, I am not sure which vent line, see my previous post) - is that not enough, does it have to go to a thru-hull?

There has to be a vent line--prob'ly only one that's most likely 5/8"--coming off the tank. Since the inlet fitting on the tank is on on one end (though why it's on the opposite end from the toilet is mystery to me!), I'm guessing the vent is on that end too. The vent fitting will be at the top. If the vent line goes only into the anchor locker, that's illegal. USCG regs require that all waste tanks--toilet waste and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat because waste can generate methane as it breaks down and methane is flammable.

And I saw the Uniseal fitting online but how do I connect a hose to that?

If it's your holding tank that vents into the chain locker, that's not legal. USCG regs require that all waste tanks--toilet and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat because waste can generate methane as it breaks down and methane is flammable.

I'll watch for your email.

--Peggie
You are right, it's a 1.5" hose and the vent line is 5/8" (see attached photo from the owner's manual).

I also got a few responses from Sabre owner's group, they are saying the vent line goes outside through the hull under the starboard toe rail, the vent fitting in the anchor locker is from the water tanks. I will check the holding tank vent line when I go back to the boat.

I will send you an email, thanks.

-Darshan
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:29   #13
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

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HopCar, by this you mean putting a valve on the hose with a handle that can be opened and closed (like the y-valve)?
You probably have a threaded fitting in the tank that has a hose barb screwed into it and the discharge hose is clamped onto the hose barb. You want to put a valve between the tank and the hose so you can close the valve and remove the hose without the tank dumping itís contents into the bilge.
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:55   #14
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Quote:
Originally Posted by navdi View Post
Hi folks,

Today, I went over the head and associated plumbing in my newly acquired 1987 Sabre 34. There is a constant foul odor in the bathroom and the v-berth and I had planned to change all plumbing and clean out the tank during the upcoming winter, however, after reviewing the various hoses and their lengths I think I will have to make some more changes.

Please review the attached photo, it is obviously not to scale however the lengths and their relative positions to each other are pretty accurate. I have colored the hoses to give a better idea as they cross each other as shown. Also, the hoses don't run as straight as shown in the photo, they pass through the under-sink area in the bathroom and then behind the port-side drawers in the v-berth.

The thing that bothers me the most is after using the toilet the waste has to go through 12 feet of 2" hose before it reaches the tank! And there is only 6" of space between the Y-valve and the tank!

Another thing that confuses me is why is the Y-valve before the holding tank? There is no way to empty out the tank if we go offshore, obviously, we can dump the waste directly from the toilet.

The pump-out hose that comes out of the tank is not all the way at the bottom leaving some waste in the tank at all times.

The top of the holding tank has great access and I should be able to do modifications, please tell me how best to solve my problem.

Thanks.
Ive got that same situation in my 1987 Watkins 29. I cant dump the holding tank where its legal to do so. I must use a pumpout or flush directly overboard. Thinking about replumbing the boat and adding a macerator toilet or macerating pump. Since I sail mostly in the Altantic, Id really like to be able to dump the tank contents overboard where legal.
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:05   #15
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Re: Need help with head and hoses

Thread drift
Hopcar and Peggy
I have a poly holding tank, say 1987 vintage, with an inlet on the vertical.
The threads on the inlet are worn and wont hold a theaded pvc fittting to which my hose is clamped. I use a Teflon based pipe dope to get a seal. Would the Uniseal work in such a situation? If I just had 6Ē of pvc through a uniseal i would get flex from the weight of 3í of hose wouldnt I? That doesnt seem like a solution. The uniseal isnt threaded. How can I modify the tank to get a a tight fit or new threads? ( This hose is often bumped and flexed when entry to the lazz is required.) Thanks and I apologize for the drift.
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