Marine head STINKS! Help!

[svANON]

I've got 2 Jabsco manual marine heads and both smell absolutely horrible - like rotten eggs - and especially when pumping with the lever in the evacuation position.

I've done the paper towel on the exhaust hose test - and the towel does not carry any smell - so I'm disinclined to think it's permeation from the white sanitation hose.

I've also installed a ball valve just after the raw water intake through hull - which allows me to pump the toilet with vinegar instead of ocean (marina) water. If I let the vinegar sit in the hose for several hours, it does seem like the smell is reduced - but not for long (maybe 2 or 3 days).

OK, so all this leads me to think that the best solution might be for me to plumb the toilets to use fresh water instead of ocean.

Question: what's the best practice to ensure that the toilet water never invades the fresh water tanks? I'm nervous about a one-way valve failing and letting some water back into the water tanks...

[Stu Jackson]

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[Tin Tin]

Are you going to install electric toilets? They usually come with a solenoid and work off pressurised fresh water system.

[CarlF]

It's very risky to use fresh water in a head designed for salt water flush because as you mention you could contaminate your fresh water supply. While you could probably modify your current head to avoid this - it's taking an awful risk with your crew's health.

If you are willing to buy new fresh water heads, then fresh water flush would solve your problem (and also stop deposits forming in your hoses and reduce other smells in the system). While this is a bit pricey, upgrading from an old Jabsco manual head to the something like the very well regarded Raritan Marine Elegance electric head would be a great improvement to the boat - no more pumping, no leaks, less maintenence, fewer holding tank pumpouts (since less flush water is used), no clogging worries.

If you don't want to replace the heads, there is a product that I've unfortunately forgotten the name of that plumbs into the salt water intake line and injects a small amount of chlorine at each flush. Hopefully someone can remember the name as it might be your most cost effective route.

[Oceanride007]

Problem is, big smell, small leak. Have a friend who introduced a timer in the circuit useing flush water for say 15seconds, do not know how he faired. In my set up had a better quality Dairy grade flexible hose but when put boat on hard for 1.5 years, it scaled up, cheaper quality hose was only available, got bad smells, will go back to white dairy hose much thicker wall thickness but need longer because of less flex.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by CarlF

It's very risky to use fresh water in a head designed for salt water flush because as you mention you could contaminate your fresh water supply. While you could probably modify your current head to avoid this - it's taking an awful risk with your crew's health.

If you are willing to buy new fresh water heads, then fresh water flush would solve your problem (and also stop deposits forming in your hoses and reduce other smells in the system). While this is a bit pricey, upgrading from an old Jabsco manual head to the something like the very well regarded Raritan Marine Elegance electric head would be a great improvement to the boat - no more pumping, no leaks, less maintenence, fewer holding tank pumpouts (since less flush water is used), no clogging worries.

If you don't want to replace the heads, there is a product that I've unfortunately forgotten the name of that plumbs into the salt water intake line and injects a small amount of chlorine at each flush. Hopefully someone can remember the name as it might be your most cost effective route.

The product you’re referring to is Commoderizer. My boat came installed with them. They are very effective at preventing odor but I don’t use them because I prefer to use NoFlex Digester to keep my lines and tanks from building sludge, which is not compatible with chlorine. I also use Sew Clean (acid) periodically to dissolve scale. Commoderizer claims to also keep lines from clogging but I don’t know how that’s possible - chlorine does not dissolve calcium scale or sludge.
I think OP should get Peggie Hall’s book on preventing boat odors, amd follow that advice.

[s/v Jedi]

Use the shower head as the fresh water source when you have a sea water flush toilet.

That said, the best thing to do is buy the Raritan fresh water flush toilet and their superflex hose.

[BirdBrain]

Are you liveaboard? Or part time?


Make sure you are fully flushing when the toilet is used. There is a calculation for the number of pumps per meter of hose. I empty the bowl, then switch and do 20 full pumps of flush, then empty the bowl again.


If the boat is getting left, do a full flush with fresh water - just get a bucket of water and put it into the bowl and flush.

[Dockhead]

Rotten eggs is not a sewage smell -- that's dead sea life in the intake lines.


This smell is inevitable when you've been off the boat and the toilets have been out of use for some time, but it usually goes away after a few flushes. I have no idea what would cause that to continue even after you've been flushing a lot -- paging Peggy!


I'm with Jedi on electric fresh water toilets. You won't regret it! This is one of the best things you can do to a boat. If possible, avoid the cheap one, and go straight for a premium one like the Raritan Marine Elegance or similar Planus or Tecma models. This is not a cheap job, but worth it!! Vacuflush is also worth looking at; this can be arranged with a manual pump with no power needed, if you prefer that.


Meanwhile, as Jedi suggested, you could turn off the intake sea cock and flush with water from the shower, and see if that helps anything.


Good luck!


Hopefully CF's own Headmistress, Peggy, the world's leading expert on marine sanitation, will be along to give you the definitive word.

[peghall]

Sea water is full of micro and not-so-micro animal and vegetable sea life that dies, decays and STINKS in the toilet intake line, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl when the boat is left to sit even overnight. Nothing poured into the bowl will prevent it because it only goes out the toilet discharge line without recirculating--and you wouldn't want it to--through the intake line, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl. Connecting a sea water toilet to the fresh water plumbing is a very bad idea because sea water toilets don't have the necessary backflow preventers and siphon breaks necessary to prevent contamination of the fresh water supply. Toilets designed to use fresh water must use PRESSURIZED water to prevent this.


However there is a work-around that provides a safe source of fresh water: the head sink. Several boat builders used to plumb their toilets this way:


Sink drain thru-hulls are below the waterline on almost all sailboats. So disconnect the toilet intake hose from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!) and r-route it to tee or wye it into the sink drain line as close to the seacock as possible because the connection must be below waterline to work. You'll be left with an unused thru-hull that you can repurpose to use for a washdown pump and probably be able to shorten the intake line.

This will allow you to flush normally with sea water. After you’ve closed the sink drain seacock in preparation to close up the boat (you do close all seacocks before leaving the boat to sit??), fill the sink with clean fresh water and flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will draw the water out of the sink, rinsing the sea water out of the entire system—intake line, pump, channel in the rim of the bowl and the discharge line,(Water poured into the bowl only rinses out the toilet discharge line). If your toilet is electric, be careful not to let it run dry…doing so can burn out the intake impeller. Or you can keep the sink drain seacock closed except when it's needed to drain the sink and flush with fresh water down the sink all the time...your choice.
It may also be necessary to keep the sink plugged except when in use, with a rubber sink plug or by installing a conveniently located shut-off valve in the drain hose. Otherwise the toilet may pull air through the sink when you try to flush, preventing the pump from priming.


I learned about this from a Tartan owner in the '90s (Tartan used to plumb their heads this way) and have been recommending ever since. However, the toilet and the head sink must be on the same side of the keel for it to work.


--Peggie

[CrispyCringle]

Peghall, Ive been contemplating converting my heads to freshwater flush as you describe above. Ive got a question though-

I cant picture why the sink drain thru hull must be below the water line for your method to work. Im sure it has to do with gravity, or syphoning. But it seems like as long as the sink bowl was above the toilet bowl why does it matter where the old sink drain thru hull level used to be?

In the case of my boat, the sinks drain to a inboard grey water sump. I dont see how that compares to a thru hull below the water line, because I dont understand why that is a requirement? TIA

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by svANON

... like rotten eggs ....

... which allows me to pump the toilet with vinegar instead of ocean (marina) water. If I let the vinegar sit in the hose for several hours, it does seem like the smell is reduced -....

These are the keys right here. As others have noted, a rotten egg smell is hydrogen sulfide, which is produced by sulfur reducing bacteria (SRB) on the intake side. And as Peggy noted, that means flushing through the intake system, not the waste side. Which also seems to be as the OP describes with the vinegar treatment.

Vinegar is the wrong tool for the job, it is the tool for trying to prevent scale buildup and should be added to the bowl to get into the waste line. On the intake side, SBR thrive in acidic environments. They prefer a pH below 4, which is the direction vinegar takes things when you add it to the system. Household vinegar typically has a pH around 2.5, and after a little dilution with the water in the system probably puts the line right in the sweet spot for SRB.

Bottom line, don't use vinegar for this task. Use fresh water as Peggy describes to flush out any organisms that might be present. If necessary you could look at some form of biocide, but not a real fan of introducing too many chemicals into the system. If you want something simple, baking soda will raise the pH of your intake, so when you do you fresh water flush that used to use vinegar, use baking soda instead in this location. However, not sure what that would do on the waste side as relates to scale when pumped through. You could also just try hydrogen peroxide in your leaving the boat flush, SRB generally prefer low-oxygen environments.

All of those are just based on the chemistry, not Peggy's tried-and-true methods, but I would certainly stop using vinegar for this purpose. On our boat we just flush a lot the first day to pass the H2S smell through the system.

[barnakiel]

Sanitation hose comes in grades. We have the one made by Vetus and it does not.


I am pretty demanding when it come to flushing. We flush once, wait, flush again (say 5 minutes later). Manual, salt water.


No bad smells ever.


b.

[Reeve21]

I keep the seawater intake closed, and just dump some freshwater in bowl before using and again before flushing. It doesn't take much to clear the lines. Simple and no stink. For the holding tank itself I use the Odorlos pellets. No stink.

But I do miss an electric head as I had on my last boat. Considering the Raritan Elegance (pressurized freshwater model). It is more complex, and I'll need to install a tank monitor to avoid pumping waste out the vent line when the tank gets full. I guess that is a possibility with a manual pump head, but I have done it and assume (hope) it would get much harder to operate the pump in an overflow situation.

[Capt Clark]

I have a Jabsco manual head that uses either salt water or fresh water to flush. The fresh water line is higher than the head and is attached to a shower valve (handle with a chain). This fresh line is teed into the hose going from the manual pump to the head so it does not go thru the manual pump. To flush we pump out with the manual handle and fill the bowl with the shower valve. No need to change out to an expensive head.