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Old 09-08-2022, 11:44   #1
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Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Image attached.



5 years.


Comments :



1) Supplied by a major local chandlery at an ARC departure port.


2) Broke off at hull surface, below the fixing nut.


3) We had to replace it while at the dock as the boatyard owner told us that a sheared thru hull is not an emergency. He did not lift my boat, despite us asking him twice. On the second try he called my partner a "liar trying to jump the queue."


I am sorry to conclude that EU boat directives are utter BS created by public servants paid from our taxes, but also taking side money from boat building lobbies. Say this is far fetched at your own risk.



I am also sorry to conclude business ethics of some boatyard owners are drifting away from what we used to consider a common boating sense and respect for our safety.


b.
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:26   #2
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

ARC departure port - is it a boatyard in the Canarias?

Not the first case where the promised minimum 5 years of functionality isn't achieved. Another cautionary tale for anyone with brass under the water line.

Definitely one of the unintended consequences of RCD regulations creating a race to the bottom among manufacturers.
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:04   #3
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

The EU's "enlightened thinking" :
  • A thruhull fitting must be corrosion resistant.
  • Corrosion resistant: Suitable for its intended use for 5 years.

The crap you bought is 100% perfect.

This is not a new problem. This crap is still being sold to suckers.

https://trip.ayy.fi/wordpress/wp-con...8/Seacocks.pdf
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:09   #4
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

more internet nonsense

the recreational craft directive references a spec that says that in essence the fitting must show NO degradation after 5 years in service ( the degradation is specified in another ISO spec)

"ISO 9093:2018
material used for a fitting, which , within a service life of 5 years does not display any defect that will impair tightness strength or function

This means that if you examine it at 5 years it cannot show any degradation, ( ISO 9093:2021 further tightens up the tests for degradation, analysis to EN 15079 spark source optical emission spectrometry )

The RCD relies on ISO technical specs amd these are created by highly component working groups

a underwater fitting that fails after 5 years is NOT RCD compliant

so please stop blaming a spec you clearly haven't read. The RCD does not stop anyone from selling anything or some idiot installing junk under the water line

absolutely there are chandlers selling cheap brass fittings and boat owners fitting them, but that's not the fault of the RCD ( ive seen boatowners fit plumbing valves from hardware shops for gods sake )

The product mention was sourced from a chandlery, in the canaries , these sources cant be trusted, chandleries often bring in cheap fittings sourced from God knows where and foolish owners fit them
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:27   #5
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

for example here's a reputable italian manufacturer

note the specific approval to ISO 9093 and its bronze , it also makes DNZ brass that is ISO 9093 compliant but they do not sell into into marine markets https://www.guidisrl.it/wp-content/u...ZR-brass-1.pdf



their report on bronze versus brass is worth reading https://www.guidisrl.it/wp-content/u...s-Guid-srl.pdf
note to be RCD compliant the sample must be analyzed to EN 15079 , by spark source optical emission spectrometry, as the report above mentions and carries out
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:45   #6
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Quote:
I am sorry to conclude that EU boat directives are utter BS created by public servants paid from our taxes, but also taking side money from boat building lobbies. Say this is far fetched at your own risk
utter nonsense, firstly ISO 9093 is not a EU funded initiative its an ISO one

The technical standards referenced in the RCD are not EU funded , they are ISO, the largest and best standards body in the world with active participation of Europe , Asia and the US



technical group ISO TC/188 is an extremely large technical group comprising research agencies, manufactures representative and has controlling members from several prominent countries including ANSI from teh US

"ISO/TC 188 has Participating Members from countries with significant recreational boating
industries and has Observing Members from countries with limited recreational boating activities.
Europe, North America, and Asia are well represented at the ISO/TC 188 level. Though several
Work Groups lack participation from various regions, ISO/TC 188 works to encourage
participation from these missing regions.
ISO/TC 188 members have had excellent participation in the standards’ ballot process and
actively participate in the annual plenary meeting which has been held in both the EU and North
America.

ISO/TC 188 has liaisons with many related ISO committees and coordinates in areas of mutual
interest. Liaison groups include CEN/TC 464, ISO/TC 70, ISO/TC 8, IEC and ICOMIA. The full
list of liaisons to ISO/TC 188 is available on the ISO/TC 188 website"

TC/188 bussines plan https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livel...2193&vernum=-2

TC 188 web site , where you can actually learn the facts rather then parroting made up nonsense

https://committee.iso.org/home/tc188
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:46   #7
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

My boat and thur hulls are 22 years old. I had my first failure last week when the hose fitting broke off at the valve for the air conditioning inlet valve. It was very brittle and I suspect it may be related to acid cleaning of that system.

Of corse this is on a high quality boat, a Hunter.
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:49   #8
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
My boat and thur hulls are 22 years old. I had my first failure last week when the hose fitting broke off at the valve for the air conditioning inlet valve. It was very brittle and I suspect it may be related to acid cleaning of that system.

Of corse this is on a high quality boat, a Hunter.
my bavaria 26 2004 had its through hulls replaced in 2019, the removed fittings were cut open and no degradation was evident
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Old 09-08-2022, 14:53   #9
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Is the through-hull Brass or Bronze?

I'm not sure I would want to use a Brass through-hull.
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Old 09-08-2022, 17:07   #10
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
Is the through-hull Brass or Bronze?

I'm not sure I would want to use a Brass through-hull.
High quality DNZ brass on a dry GRP boat can in fact last a very long time, the problem is so much brass is cheap junk and chandleries are the worst culprits in my experience

hence bronze errs on the safer side and can be acquired at reasonable prices from specialist suppliers like the italian one I mentioned

the trouble is aftermarket rubbish in my experience with foolish owners fitting cheap rubbish
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Old 09-08-2022, 17:51   #11
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
utter nonsense, firstly ISO 9093 is not a EU funded initiative its an ISO one

The technical standards referenced in the RCD are not EU funded , they are ISO, the largest and best standards body in the world with active participation of Europe , Asia and the US



technical group ISO TC/188 is an extremely large technical group comprising research agencies, manufactures representative and has controlling members from several prominent countries including ANSI from teh US

"ISO/TC 188 has Participating Members from countries with significant recreational boating
industries and has Observing Members from countries with limited recreational boating activities.
Europe, North America, and Asia are well represented at the ISO/TC 188 level. Though several
Work Groups lack participation from various regions, ISO/TC 188 works to encourage
participation from these missing regions.
ISO/TC 188 members have had excellent participation in the standards’ ballot process and
actively participate in the annual plenary meeting which has been held in both the EU and North
America.

ISO/TC 188 has liaisons with many related ISO committees and coordinates in areas of mutual
interest. Liaison groups include CEN/TC 464, ISO/TC 70, ISO/TC 8, IEC and ICOMIA. The full
list of liaisons to ISO/TC 188 is available on the ISO/TC 188 website"

TC/188 bussines plan https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livel...2193&vernum=-2

TC 188 web site , where you can actually learn the facts rather then parroting made up nonsense

https://committee.iso.org/home/tc188
The fact is the EU has incorporated the ISO standard into the RCD by reference. The ISO is certainly not the same as the EU, but the EU certainly endorses the ISO standards in this case. I feel perfectly justified in being critical of the EU regulation writers--as well as the ISO.

Making an appeal to authority by telling us how big and important the ISO is really isn't an argument. Big, important organizations make mistakes all the time. You might have noticed this in other areas of life.

While I will grant you that a fitting that fails at 5 years plus one day does not comply with the standards, the idea that a 5 year service life is appropriate for something like a thruhull is patently ridiculous, especially when alternative with essentially indefinite lifespans are available. The fact is the CW617N brass fittings have carried an ISO 9093-1 certification, and that is completely silly.

I HAVE read the applicable standard, and it is just plain inappropriate for something like a thruhull in a boat. Honestly, to me the standard isn't even appropriate for a domestic plumbing fitting. I would expect any reasonable material for the kind of life-safty installation as a thruhull to "not display any defect that will impair tightness strength or function" for AT LEAST 20 years because such materials are available, and the only reason not to use them is COST.

This is also NOT just chandleries screwing this up by selling non-DZR brass to ignorant customers. Many of the big European boatbuilders fell into the same trap assuming that a fitting with an ISO certification was good to use building boats that were in compliance with the RCD. I think they have all been bitten by this enough that they realized the money saved isn't worth it, but it took years.

A 5 year service life might be OK for a lake based 14 foot jon-boat. For an ocean going cruising boat with a Type A certification it is a joke. You can throw all the legal spaghetti at the wall you want to see what sticks, but it doesn't change things.
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Old 09-08-2022, 18:10   #12
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

This is an old story. See these two articles by Paul Stevens
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Old 09-08-2022, 18:18   #13
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDepends View Post
The EU's "enlightened thinking" :
  • A thruhull fitting must be corrosion resistant.
  • Corrosion resistant: Suitable for its intended use for 5 years.

The crap you bought is 100% perfect.

This is not a new problem. This crap is still being sold to suckers.

https://trip.ayy.fi/wordpress/wp-con...8/Seacocks.pdf

Some years ago the EU decided five or whatever years was OK. The result was mon-marine bronze stuff with too high zinc content. There have been many discussions regarding this planned sinking/death. Buy GROCO or other low zinc, heigh copper parts. Ours are 1984 and still solid. Look for fittings where the cut threads show copper color. Yellow brass is totally unacceptable.
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Old 09-08-2022, 18:22   #14
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

I'm starting to see why my insurer requested synthetic skin fittings from Truedesign in New Zealand.
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Old 09-08-2022, 18:46   #15
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Re: Life Expectancy of Brass Through Hulls

Calling people who buy bad products from chandleries "foolish" and "suckers" is kind of harsh.
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