Heat Pump Dryers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

. . . But then again...surely a washer or drier on a boat has to be in light duty service, as compared to one in a house with two kids running six? loads of laundry every week?

In our case it's pretty heavy duty usage, with up to 6 people on board and all the bedding and towels as well as clothing.


I will specify full size heavy duty separate washer and dryer on my next boat, I think.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I will specify [insert] ........on my next boat.

You’re beginning to sound like a broken record.... to all those who still remember the meaning of the phrase.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dan-
My friends next-door neighbor is a retired appliance repair man. If you've gotten 20 years out of any new appliance, that's apparently twice the expected average these days. His experience was that the computers and electronic controls are what continue to fail, and from what I've seen that's a big issue. Like, "the board" replaced twice in 8? years in a dishwasher, once in ten years in a GE electric stovetop and oven, then the oven was replaced because a second board would have cost $400 versus $600 for a whole new oven.
Samsung's engineering also doesn't impress me. (Which is not necessarily unique to them.) My tablet blew apart from a swollen battery. It took about 6-7 weeks before the long saga of replacement got done, with multiple oopses from their end. Same as the Galaxy7 phone issues, I expect. Longevity just doesn't seem to be one of their concerns.

But then again...surely a washer or drier on a boat has to be in light duty service, as compared to one in a house with two kids running six? loads of laundry every week?

We built our house almost 15 years ago and thus the kitchen appliances were installed new. Of the four kitchen appliances, only the range is original. The rest have been replaced. I have had to replace one oven heater element and one of the door handles broke which I fixed with some epoxy.

The dishwasher control board failed within the first week and fixed under warranty. It was replaced with a Bosch after various electronics failed with the last being a board that really fried. The first fridge had a compressor failure just before the five year warranty was up. The new compressor lasted another five or so years before it started acting up. The replacement fridge died within months and Lowes gave great customer service taking the POS back and giving us a new model. The microwave died a few years back as well.

Our clothes washer was a front loader and it saved us a bunch of money of decreased water usage. However, it had pins that were supposed to be inserted to hold the drum when the washer was transported. I had saved the pins when I installed the washer but I had not realized that it required a service call to put the pins back in. So we must moved the washer.

After a few years the washer just beat itself to death. The long list of parts to fix the washer cost more than a new one.

Not sure how a front loader washer like we have would work on a boat. Much less how long it would survive. Surprisingly, the electronics never had an issue.

Which is what concerns me about a heat pump dryer. How long will the heat pump and other electronics last before they fail. Whatever savings there are in power, and thus dollars, are likely to be erased quickly by the repair/replacement costs. The savings for a land based unit were $75-100 a year and the dryer was almost twice as much money as a regular unit but for far less drying capacity. Not sure these things make money sense.

However, what is interesting is the ventless operation. THAT maybe worth the price.

Later,
Dan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You’re beginning to sound like a broken record.... to all those who still remember the meaning of the phrase.

What does that even mean? What are you talking about?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dannc

We built our house almost 15 years ago and thus the kitchen appliances were installed new. Of the four kitchen appliances, only the range is original. The rest have been replaced. I have had to replace one oven heater element and one of the door handles broke which I fixed with some epoxy.

The dishwasher control board failed within the first week and fixed under warranty. It was replaced with a Bosch after various electronics failed with the last being a board that really fried. The first fridge had a compressor failure just before the five year warranty was up. The new compressor lasted another five or so years before it started acting up. The replacement fridge died within months and Lowes gave great customer service taking the POS back and giving us a new model. The microwave died a few years back as well.

Our clothes washer was a front loader and it saved us a bunch of money of decreased water usage. However, it had pins that were supposed to be inserted to hold the drum when the washer was transported. I had saved the pins when I installed the washer but I had not realized that it required a service call to put the pins back in. So we must moved the washer.

After a few years the washer just beat itself to death. The long list of parts to fix the washer cost more than a new one.

Not sure how a front loader washer like we have would work on a boat. Much less how long it would survive. Surprisingly, the electronics never had an issue.

Which is what concerns me about a heat pump dryer. How long will the heat pump and other electronics last before they fail. Whatever savings there are in power, and thus dollars, are likely to be erased quickly by the repair/replacement costs. The savings for a land based unit were $75-100 a year and the dryer was almost twice as much money as a regular unit but for far less drying capacity. Not sure these things make money sense.

However, what is interesting is the ventless operation. THAT maybe worth the price.

Later,
Dan

That's a very good point.


The old Eumenia on my boat has been going strong with no failures except the main switch for 18 years, and I even use it underway. It may be crude, it may use tons of power and water, it may have tiny capacity, but it does have that overwhelming virtue.


I guess one should be careful in choosing to be sure that whatever it is has been used in a mobile environment. Scary to hear how short the lives of some of these expensive appliances are

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Heat pump dryers didn't exist in 2009. The Splendides are condensor dryers (there are also ordinary vented versions).


A condensor dryer has the drawback of using up water, but that would be ok for me -- the water is cold, so the process would be effective, and we rarely lack for fresh water. Unfortunately the Splendides are not sold in Europe and are not made in 230v/50hz.

Some Heat pump dryer Washer dryer combined units mentioned here- https://www.t3.com/features/best-washer-dryer

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Some Heat pump dryer Washer dryer combined units mentioned here- https://www.t3.com/features/best-washer-dryer

Proof of concept!


Now we just need a compact and really robust one.


The comments in this article about reliability do give one pause however:


https://www.reviewed.com/laundry/con...essions-review


DanNC's comment got me thinking about this issue. It may be that I am not appreciating enough the bulletproof mechanical (no electronics) reliability of the Austrian Eudora/Eumenia unit I already have, which has literally never broken in 10 years of my ownership (18 years total life), except for a problem with the main switch.


I'm not sure this kind of machine is made anymore.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm not sure this kind of machine is made anymore.

Why would you make a machine that lasts 18 years if you business is based on selling new ones surely 10 years and then total obsolescence would be more profitable.

Pete

[a64pilot]

Compressors, which is of course all that a heat pump is, are or can be extremely long lived.
I’d say a house heat pump usually last 20 yrs or so and runs pretty much all day and night, ever season of the year as they both heat and cool.
We bought a fridge at Sears when we came back from Germany. 20 yrs later it had begun to rust on the outside and the handles color had begun to wear off and the Wife put her foot down, so a year before we began to cruise, we got fridge.
I had replaced the thermostat and the ice maker a coupe of times, but it worked great, and if I hadn’t used the energy saving setting it wouldn’t have likely rusted either.

Put those lifespans and operating hours beside of a drier’s which will likely have less than 1/10 of the hours of a fridge or house heat pump.

However I agree with they electronics statement, they do seem to be way less robust than they should be, and it’s getting harder to buy “stuff” without them now too.

Anything like that, my toilet control board and the Solo tank monitor as an example, I take apart before I install them and conformal coat the boards.
Very often that is the difference between “marine” electronics, the boards are conformal coated.
Complex electronics like TV’s and cameras I’ve not done that due to the likelihood of me tearing up a brand new item

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Why would you make a machine that lasts 18 years if you business is based on selling new ones surely 10 years and then total obsolescence would be more profitable.



Pete

That is what “successful” people that are marketed to do, and the general public also of course wants that.
However I believe that many products are the best now that they have ever been, an automobile for instance, average car well cared for that was built 20 yrs ago can easily still be on the road now, but we are taught that you need a new car every three or at most four years.

Cars have never been easier to maintain, made more power, lasted as long or more efficient than now.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Compressors, which is of course all that a heat pump is, are or can be extremely long lived....


We bought a fridge at Sears when we came back from Germany. 20 yrs later it had begun to rust on the outside and the handles color had begun to wear off and the Wife put her foot down, so a year before we began to cruise, we got fridge.


...


Put those lifespans and operating hours beside of a drier’s which will likely have less than 1/10 of the hours of a fridge or house heat pump.

...

We have had five compressors spread over three fridges. The first fridge had two compressors replaced. When the third compressor was dying, we bought a new fridge. That fridge's compressor died within a few months which seemed to be a common problem with that model.

While compressors SHOULD be long lived, the AC in my truck is 18 years old, what we have seen in the last 15 years makes me question the reliability of fridge compressors. We where buying the best rated equipment too.

One of the bad points of the heat pump dryer is that it takes much longer to dry the same amount of clothes, thus it's run time is going to be greater than a regular clothes dryer. I just don't see it lasting as long as a regular dryer.

When I read this thread I started researching the heat pump dryers because our current dryer is running most of the day. I kid ye not. We have two teenagers and they are constantly washing and drying clothes. The clothes dryer is usually running when we got to sleep at night. Given that the heat pump dryer takes longer to dry clothes means it simply will not work for us until the Land Anchors, aka, the kids, get out of the house. If we replaced the current dryer with a heat pump model I would guess it would be running danger near 24 hours a day with us. I think a big part of our electric bill is that danged drying running all of the time...

If it was just the wife and myself, the usage would not be as extreme but the heat pump dryer is still going to run longer than a regular one. Longer run times should not really be an issue longevity wise, but given the poor quality of appliances today, I would not expect the dryer to last that long.

Later,
Dan

[a64pilot]

When we had our three kids living in the house and our two Grandchildren, the washer / drier ran every day.
Yes using electricity to heat a high resistance wire is about the most expensive way there is to generate heat, it’s also about the cheapest to manufacture.
However as I hope we all strive to use less, which isn’t happening, but I hope we will. We will hopefully become more efficient rather than doing without.
I see the roads clogged with 12 MPG SUV’s and pickups, I’m not holding my breath.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dannc

We have had five compressors spread over three fridges. The first fridge had two compressors replaced. When the third compressor was dying, we bought a new fridge. That fridge's compressor died within a few months which seemed to be a common problem with that model.

While compressors SHOULD be long lived, the AC in my truck is 18 years old, what we have seen in the last 15 years makes me question the reliability of fridge compressors. We where buying the best rated equipment too.

One of the bad points of the heat pump dryer is that it takes much longer to dry the same amount of clothes, thus it's run time is going to be greater than a regular clothes dryer. I just don't see it lasting as long as a regular dryer.

When I read this thread I started researching the heat pump dryers because our current dryer is running most of the day. I kid ye not. We have two teenagers and they are constantly washing and drying clothes. The clothes dryer is usually running when we got to sleep at night. Given that the heat pump dryer takes longer to dry clothes means it simply will not work for us until the Land Anchors, aka, the kids, get out of the house. If we replaced the current dryer with a heat pump model I would guess it would be running danger near 24 hours a day with us. I think a big part of our electric bill is that danged drying running all of the time...

If it was just the wife and myself, the usage would not be as extreme but the heat pump dryer is still going to run longer than a regular one. Longer run times should not really be an issue longevity wise, but given the poor quality of appliances today, I would not expect the dryer to last that long.

Later,
Dan

Are you sure the run time is longer with a heat pump dryer? My land dryer takes something over an hour; just like my boat one. Only the land dryer holds 8kg; the boat one less than half of that. I don't really remember other dryers; in my other house we have a Miele condensor dryer, I believe, but a housekeeper has done all the laundry for decades, and I don't use the appliances there, so I don't know how long it takes, but I would think it's over an hour.


Here is a good set of arguments AGAINST heat pump dryers: https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/...ryers-worth-it. Essentially, that although they save a ton of energy the payback is 11 years given the very high cost of heat pump dryers. But for a boat -- IF we could buy one which was robust enough -- the cost of power is far greater (I figure about £1/kW/h including generator amortization, maintenance, and fuel, which is 10 times more than you pay on land), and the requirement of condensor dryers to use 20-30 liters of water per load, just for cooling the condensor -- make that equation look quite different, I think.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

When we had our three kids living in the house and our two Grandchildren, the washer / drier ran every day.
Yes using electricity to heat a high resistance wire is about the most expensive way there is to generate heat, it’s also about the cheapest to manufacture.
However as I hope we all strive to use less, which isn’t happening, but I hope we will. We will hopefully become more efficient rather than doing without.
I see the roads clogged with 12 MPG SUV’s and pickups, I’m not holding my breath.

OT, but I clog the road with my 20 year old convertible which gets 29 mpg.

[Rapanui]

Condenser dryers in the UK do not use additional cold water, they just take electricity in. They do generate a significant amount of water extracted from drying the clothes. There is a large heat exchanger which cools the hot moist air which has passed through the clothes by warming the cooler relatively dry air which is then boosted by electric heating to repeat the cycle. Cooling the hot moist air condenses the water out.
The heat exchange condensing cycle improves the efficiency significantly. A big deal at the price of electricity in UK