Gas Compliance Plate

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Hence why in Qld at least, a gas fitter working on or installing gas systems on boats needs an extra insurance component to do so, it's not cheap and most gas fitters can't justify the extra expense for the few systems they do a year. There was only one in the Bundaberg region at the time when i had a new system installed, non of the garden variety gas fitters could or would do the job....

The three gas fitters I located and approached all gave the compliance costs and limited customer base as the reason they declined to service the marine sector.

The point I was attempting to make in the first post was why did an 18 month old installation which fully complied with the WA requirements require an entire refit in Queensland. As an oil and gas field professional qualified to plumb 10,000 psi working pressure, high volume capacity oil and gas systems I considered the WA requirements as the superior and that the refit had increased the hazards.

I have another couple of friends who did have their installation re-fitted. For some reason the bottles were relocated on deck at the stern where they are being subjected to the salt water marine environment, the hoses from the regulator to the connection to the internal copper piping and the regulator were fixed to a hand railing with cable ties. Other than the valve on the gas bottles and the valves on the stove there were no other shut offs in the system. When I asked them when they shut of the gas at the bottles they responded that they only did so if leaving the boat overnight. However it now does comply and they have the certificate to prove it.

Having a solenoid at the bottles allows the user to switch the gas off at the bottles first, which depressurizes the system and when the flame goes out gives a visual indication of gas shut off at the bottles.

When I fitted out my previous boat I sourced all the tube, hoses and fittings, installed the copper tube from the locker to the stove and mounted the regulator and bulkhead fitting ready to be connected. At that time the WA authorities required the stove end hoses to be high pressure, metal braided, hydraulic hose. The locker end was fine however when it came to the stove end he found a fitting in his tool box and coupled the copper tube extending through a bulkhead directly to the stiff hydraulic hose, leaving the bulkhead fitting I had supplied to ensure no flexing of the copper tube out of the system. When I complained that the stiff hose would flex and work harden the copper tube and that consequently there was a probability that it would crack and leak he said "That's the way we do these and if you want the certificate it stays." I bit my tongue and later fitted the bulkhead fitting myself.

Incidentally they also required hydraulic hose on the low pressure diesel drain return line from the fuel system to the fuel tank.

I fully agree that these regulations are there in an attempt to keep the public safe but there are numerous instances where they fall short.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Mr B

They changed the law after a gas bottle exploded, and all that was left was the floor and four wheels of a panel van,

Coincidence? same thing happened 2 streets away from where my brother lived in Wilson, a suburb of Perth Western Australia. Guy jumped into his panel van in the morning to go to work, as soon as he turned the ignition key it exploded, sounded like a bomb going of with parts of the van and it's contents blown 100's of meters in every direction....turns out he had a leaky oxy/acet set in the back of the van.......that was a long time ago, sometime in the 80's.....

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Coincidence? same thing happened 2 streets away from where my brother lived in Wilson, a suburb of Perth Western Australia. Guy jumped into his panel van in the morning to go to work, as soon as he turned the ignition key it exploded, sounded like a bomb going of with parts of the van and it's contents blown 100's of meters in every direction....turns out he had a leaky oxy/acet set in the back of the van.......that was a long time ago, sometime in the 80's.....

Might even be the same one, It was a long time ago, And Perth rings a bell,

My work truck was a travelling Bomb,
Oxy/acetylene, Propane, Petrol, Diesel, Mobile welder,
So there was plenty of sparks around it all, F100 flat bed truck,
I had my acetylene bottle chained upright and the oxy bottle went thru the floor and stood upright,
I go to 4000 PSI, Petrochem plants,

But I walked into a place in south Boxhill, Their plant was in an implosion building,
I stopped and checked my boots for swarfe, Metal filings in my boots that could create a spark, As I walked in the gate,
That was a scary place to work, It had to be under 2 on his meter or you just didnt do anything,
It was like working in a vat of thinners, They made the chemicals they make paint out of,
Pressure vessel with steam and this highly explosive product came out of it,

[IslandHopper]

And just transporting your BBQ LPG cylinders can be deadly.....from last year, more footage in link....

https://thewest.com.au/news/australi...ng-b881039175z

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kIkHmm1xSY

[TassieBloke]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

One of the stickers Victoria requires is one near the locker requires that no electrical equipment be placed in the locker. This requirement devolves from the Australian Standard. I prefer to have an electric solenoid valve immediately after the bottle valve because the diaphragm in the regulator is the weakest point in the gas circuit. Therefor in Victoria I would be non compliant.

Not a VIC requirement, a national AS requirement.


This is where AS/NZS 5601.2:2013 appears to contradict itself, or at least can be misinterpreted.

****
3.4 CYLINDER COMPARTMENTS AND LP GAS LOCKERS

3.4.3 Boats pg.34
.
.
(i) Not contain any electrical equipment other than a non-sparking shut-off device.

.
.



E3.1 Solenoid Valve pg.72
The solenoid valve shall be located between the cylinder and the first-stage gas pressure regulator.

The solenoid valve shall be suitable for the pressure rating.
***

So if you read the Standard literally, then you cannot have a standard electrically activated shut off solenoid in the locker. However you must have a shut off solenoid between the cylinder valve and the HP side of the regulator. It is permissible to have max length 600mm braided hose between the Valve and the HP reg, but this leaves installation less than optimal.

So theoretically you would need to mount the regulator/solenoid on the outside of the locker, but then provide impact protection.

What the Standard doesn't address if you choose to have an intrinsically safe solenoid inside the locker (although, it could be said that they do allude to this by saying 'non-sparking shut off device').

I am not surprised that many gas fitters don't touch LPG in a boat, or why when they do, they are not familiar with the latest wording and then each State Worksafe Authority put their own spin on AS/NZS 5601.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by TassieBloke

Not a VIC requirement, a national AS requirement.


This is where AS/NZS 5601.2:2013 appears to contradict itself, or at least can be misinterpreted.

****
3.4 CYLINDER COMPARTMENTS AND LP GAS LOCKERS

3.4.3 Boats pg.34
.
.
(i) Not contain any electrical equipment other than a non-sparking shut-off device.

.
.



E3.1 Solenoid Valve pg.72
The solenoid valve shall be located between the cylinder and the first-stage gas pressure regulator.

The solenoid valve shall be suitable for the pressure rating.
***

So if you read the Standard literally, then you cannot have a standard electrically activated shut off solenoid in the locker. However you must have a shut off solenoid between the cylinder valve and the HP side of the regulator. It is permissible to have max length 600mm braided hose between the Valve and the HP reg, but this leaves installation less than optimal.

So theoretically you would need to mount the regulator/solenoid on the outside of the locker, but then provide impact protection.

What the Standard doesn't address if you choose to have an intrinsically safe solenoid inside the locker (although, it could be said that they do allude to this by saying 'non-sparking shut off device').

I am not surprised that many gas fitters don't touch LPG in a boat, or why when they do, they are not familiar with the latest wording and then each State Worksafe Authority put their own spin on AS/NZS 5601.

Don't know why you would think it's less than optimal unless you are suggesting using a non approved solenoid on the outside of the locker (re-reading your post i think that is what you mean?) then that would be a dodgy install, running the lines out then back in lol....my 2 cylinders, 2 SS sheathed hoses, intrinsically safe solenoid and regulator are all inside the locker, in fact it would be less than optimal to try otherwise.....

[TassieBloke]

Hi IH,

Yes you were able to interpret my ramblings [emoji1]

Your setup is the right way to install, which in my opinion exceeds AS, although I am not sure that all gas fitters would fully understand the intrinsically safe part. Naturally, if they had any experience in hydrocarbon transfer systems and Terminals they would [emoji6]

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by TassieBloke

Not a VIC requirement, a national AS requirement.


This is where AS/NZS 5601.2:2013 appears to contradict itself, or at least can be misinterpreted.

****
3.4 CYLINDER COMPARTMENTS AND LP GAS LOCKERS

3.4.3 Boats pg.34
.
.
(i) Not contain any electrical equipment other than a non-sparking shut-off device.

.
.



E3.1 Solenoid Valve pg.72
The solenoid valve shall be located between the cylinder and the first-stage gas pressure regulator.

The solenoid valve shall be suitable for the pressure rating.
***

So if you read the Standard literally, then you cannot have a standard electrically activated shut off solenoid in the locker. However you must have a shut off solenoid between the cylinder valve and the HP side of the regulator. It is permissible to have max length 600mm braided hose between the Valve and the HP reg, but this leaves installation less than optimal.

So theoretically you would need to mount the regulator/solenoid on the outside of the locker, but then provide impact protection.

What the Standard doesn't address if you choose to have an intrinsically safe solenoid inside the locker (although, it could be said that they do allude to this by saying 'non-sparking shut off device').

I am not surprised that many gas fitters don't touch LPG in a boat, or why when they do, they are not familiar with the latest wording and then each State Worksafe Authority put their own spin on AS/NZS 5601.

I actually located the AS web site to order a copy of the standard, I used to regularly buy them from the standards office in Perth for about $35 per copy, but was a bit shocked at the price of them so researched the web for all I could find and drew what I thought were reasonable inferences.

The Vic sticker states no electrical equipment which in the absence of the of the solenoid allowance proviso in the relevant AS I assumed all electrical equipment was forbidden.

One needs to be a bit careful with the expression "intrinsically safe". There is a specific line of equipment designated as intrinsically safe. It's design is based upon the fact that a spark must contain a certain amount of energy to act as an ignition source. The intrinsically safe equipment limits the voltage and current supplied to the device so that this energy limit is never exceeded. I don't recall the exact figures but it's something like 7mA at 7 volts for 50 mW total power which is far less than the amp or so at 12V required to actuate a solenoid.

Since a gas solenoid has only a fairly passive device in the coil it can be readily sealed and provided the electrical cable is sealed can be taken outside the locker through a gas tight gland to make the connection to a switch.

Looks like I might have to bite the bullet and purchase a copy of the standard although I have not had a lot of luck in the past attempting to reason with bureaucrats.

[TassieBloke]

Hi RaymondR,

PM me if you want need a copy.

Cheers,

Tim