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Old 23-11-2016, 13:53   #1
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Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

This is a question for Dockhead.

I understand from a previous thread on CF that you have fitted a Wiltec 2200 pump to your yacht. I have one of these in mind too but as they are so heavy it will have to be well fixed in place. How have you done it or is yours moveable?

Would love to know. Cheers,
Mike
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Old 23-11-2016, 14:23   #2
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

It is a monster beast, isn't it?

Mine is intentionally moveable in case I need to use it at some specific location, or need to use it to save someone else's boat.

I have a really good place for it in my main bilge -- which is deep and narrow in that spot. Probably should be tied down in case of any risk of a roll, as that huge lump would wreak havoc. Note to self.

I keep a folding fire hose with it, and the plan is to toss that out the companionway and tie to a stanchion.

In my opinion, to answer your question, it should be kept in the bilge, if you have space for it. Tie it down. Keep everything you need to make it work right at hand.
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Old 23-11-2016, 14:38   #3
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Well, yes I think it should be firmly fixed in place somewhere in case of violent motion which, as you say, will wreak havoc. Any ideas of how to lash it down? Is there anything on the pump body to take a rope or a clamp? I haven't physically got one yet but want to be fairly sure of how to proceed with the installation before buying.

I was planning to fit enough layflat hose to it to reach out of the companionway doors and over the side. Lashing to a stanchion is a good idea. Thanks.
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Old 23-11-2016, 14:45   #4
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikecoin View Post
Well, yes I think it should be firmly fixed in place somewhere in case of violent motion which, as you say, will wreak havoc. Any ideas of how to lash it down? Is there anything on the pump body to take a rope or a clamp? I haven't physically got one yet but want to be fairly sure of how to proceed with the installation before buying.

I was planning to fit enough layflat hose to it to reach out of the companionway doors and over the side. Lashing to a stanchion is a good idea. Thanks.
Yes, it has a robust handle on the top which would be fine for lashing it down.

The pump is huge; would be difficult to move using only one person. Almost need a block and tackle. So be sure that you can operate it in an emergency. Best to have the hose already connected so all you have to do is throw it out.

How will you power it? One of my winter projects is to build a switchover for my generator, so that I can disconnect the main AC system from the generator output, and directly connect the pump.
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Old 23-11-2016, 16:27   #5
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

I had intended just plugging it into the nearest 220V outlet. As it (only) draws 2.2kW that should be well within the capacity of the 220V system, all of which is well above the generator level. What is the reasoning behind disconnecting the entire electrical system?

In fact on my yacht the genset is the most vulnerable part being only a couple of feet above the lowest part of the bilge. To help me prevent the genset being overwhelmed I have a bilge alarm set at about 1.5" above the bilge bottom. I hope this would give me enough time to deploy the pump. I can't easily test this, nor do I want to find out the hard way so I can only plan around what's possible within reason.

Cheers,
Mike
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Old 23-11-2016, 23:24   #6
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikecoin View Post
I had intended just plugging it into the nearest 220V outlet. As it (only) draws 2.2kW that should be well within the capacity of the 220V system, all of which is well above the generator level. What is the reasoning behind disconnecting the entire electrical system?

In fact on my yacht the genset is the most vulnerable part being only a couple of feet above the lowest part of the bilge. To help me prevent the genset being overwhelmed I have a bilge alarm set at about 1.5" above the bilge bottom. I hope this would give me enough time to deploy the pump. I can't easily test this, nor do I want to find out the hard way so I can only plan around what's possible within reason.

Cheers,
Mike
Your situation is different, so I see why you would do it that way.

My generator is located quite high (unfortunately for the CG of my boat) -- above the main engine on a platform, well above the waterline.

I have parts of my AC electrical system a lot lower. In a bad flooding situation, salt water could reach parts of the regular AC system and short it out/trip out RCD or breakers. But the generator should work until the deck is almost awash. So the idea was to disconnect the main electrical system -- safer anyway if I'm diving in the bilge trying to stop a hull breach.


One thing which inspired my acquisition of this pump was a case which happened with another Moody 54, "Red Sky". This boat got caught in a wave rider buoy off the coast of Australia, and the thin steel cable cut through the hull at the keel base. The owner couldn't stop the flooding and abandoned. The boat didn't actually sink and washed up on a beach later, and was stripped by locals. With a proper pump like this one, I'm sure he could have kept the boat well afloat and could have gotten back into port.
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Old 24-11-2016, 09:09   #7
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

I always thought this pump looked interesting and low-tech, though would depend how deep your bilge was compared to your prop shaft.

Fast Flow Emergency Bilge Pump

I have not seen one in person, but I met the designer in Antigua.
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Old 24-11-2016, 09:24   #8
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

I always thought that was a cool concept. The problem is, if you're taking on water, are you going to want to motor full speed ahead?
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Old 24-11-2016, 16:09   #9
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

I have the Ericsson ESP3-08 on my propeller shaft, but I also have a CPP so I can run the engine at full RPM and adjust the pitch to neutral or reverse/forward too..
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Old 24-11-2016, 20:49   #10
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Re: Fast Flow

"24,000 gallons/hour at 2,000 rpm."

Does anybody run their shaft at 2000 rpm?
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Old 25-11-2016, 08:49   #11
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

I just wonder at what water level will the pump short out? Can it operate when submerged? My concern would be that the location in the bilge might make it vulnerable to high water before it gets ahead of a major leak. Assuming it will work if the water is less than 2' or so my next question is just what size hole are you protecting against?
I guess I'm more of a fatalist in that my bilge setup will handle moderate leaks like a failed through hull fitting but a collision resulting in major hull damage will probably sink her unless I could quickly run aground.
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Old 25-11-2016, 10:37   #12
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Dave, if you're talking about the pump that Dockhead has and that I'm discussing then it's fully submersible. See here Trash Water Pump V2200F with float switch 42000l/h with 2200W

In my case, my genny is mounted quite low and that will fail if the water gets above 2 ft or so. I believe there are charts of water flow v. orifice area for varying depths (head) of water but I can't locate them just now. The Wiltec will pump just under 700 litres/min at 3m head which is over 3 oil drums a minute.

My view is fit the biggest pump you can manage as it's impossible to predict the water inflow in the case of an accident. I'm beginning to think that it's important to have a moveable pump if there are bulkheads separating the various parts of the bilge, as in my case. The Wiltec pump is very heavy at 33kg and may be beyond my capabilities to lift in an emergency, so I'm now looking at a slightly smaller and lighter one.

Mike
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Old 25-11-2016, 11:28   #13
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikecoin View Post
Dave, if you're talking about the pump that Dockhead has and that I'm discussing then it's fully submersible. See here Trash Water Pump V2200F with float switch 42000l/h with 2200W

In my case, my genny is mounted quite low and that will fail if the water gets above 2 ft or so. I believe there are charts of water flow v. orifice area for varying depths (head) of water but I can't locate them just now. The Wiltec will pump just under 700 litres/min at 3m head which is over 3 oil drums a minute.

My view is fit the biggest pump you can manage as it's impossible to predict the water inflow in the case of an accident. I'm beginning to think that it's important to have a moveable pump if there are bulkheads separating the various parts of the bilge, as in my case. The Wiltec pump is very heavy at 33kg and may be beyond my capabilities to lift in an emergency, so I'm now looking at a slightly smaller and lighter one.

Mike
Yes -- keep in mind that RATED capacity and REAL capacity in realistic conditions, including trash in the bilge water (inevitable in a flooding emergency), are two completely different things.

I don't actually think that a normal bilge pump, even a big one like my Rule 4000's, will keep up with even a failed through hull, in realistic conditions including a certain head (the ratings are for zero head), friction from bends in the discharge pipe, and especially, trash clogging the pickup screen.

That's why I particularly bought a TRASH pump which doesn't have a pickup screen, but will macerate anything which gets into it.

I believe the Wilco will deal with any through hull failure, and probably many hull breaches as well. In any case -- the more capacity the better. Even if it does not keep up with the leak, it will give you more time to get on fothering or stem the leak in some other way.

P.S. Yes the pump, like all of them of this type, is made to be operated when fully submersed.
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Old 25-11-2016, 15:02   #14
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikecoin View Post
Dave, if you're talking about the pump that Dockhead has and that I'm discussing then it's fully submersible. See here Trash Water Pump V2200F with float switch 42000l/h with 2200W

In my case, my genny is mounted quite low and that will fail if the water gets above 2 ft or so. I believe there are charts of water flow v. orifice area for varying depths (head) of water but I can't locate them just now. The Wiltec will pump just under 700 litres/min at 3m head which is over 3 oil drums a minute.

My view is fit the biggest pump you can manage as it's impossible to predict the water inflow in the case of an accident. I'm beginning to think that it's important to have a moveable pump if there are bulkheads separating the various parts of the bilge, as in my case. The Wiltec pump is very heavy at 33kg and may be beyond my capabilities to lift in an emergency, so I'm now looking at a slightly smaller and lighter one.

Mike
Unless I totally blew the math 700 L/min @10' roughly equates to a 2"x2" hole. Formula is G/min=.6 A*sqrt(2x32.2x h(ft)). At h=10', a=.026 sf= 3.7 sq in. To me that seems like insuring against intermediate damage when the risks are concentrated between smaller and much larger flows. I would be more inclined to invest in ditching equipment but that's just me. Hopefully you will never have to use it.
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Old 26-11-2016, 04:31   #15
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Re: Fixing a big crash pump in the bilge

Dave, thanks for working out the flow rate v. hole size. However I think you have not quite understood the situation. On a fin keel (or semi-fin as I have), yacht of 6ft draft, any hole is going to be in the range 0 to say around 4ft which is the head of seawater seen at the hole. The pump head refers to the height of water the pump needs to lift to get the water over the gunwale and out of the boat. Are you confusing the two?

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