Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-01-2022, 17:07   #1
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Ozefridge, Yarroweyah Australia
Boat: 2017
Posts: 267
Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Adding refrigeration step by step.
The following simple process will assist in providing a satisfactory refrigeration project outcome, enabling selection of the most suitable system type / capacity and provide a power consumption estimate to enable power resupply to be addressed.

This suggested process is based upon the Refrigeration Industry’s practices and protocols.

1: Obtain and advise project cabinet details including dimensions, wall thickness, insulation properties (if possible), inner lining material, access type, maximum environment temperature likely, number of persons to service, and if to operate as all fridge, all freezer or a *combination fridge /freezer (*advise portions) Also any other issues specific to the project.

2: Forward these details to your refrigeration company / suppler for analysis. Their analysis should provide estimates of cabinet capacity, hourly and daily heat load, system duty cycle (% of run time, should be less than 50%) and 24 hour power consumption. See example here: https://www.ozefridge.com/system-estimate Have a copy of your estimate emailed for reference.

3: Discuss project details and expectations with supplier. Discuss the system type options as there are basically three recommended each with a range of capacities and each with their own merits. Check for best location of evaporator in cabinet, best pipe run route and length. Establish condensing unit location particularly regards ventilation and if ‘air cooled’ only is sufficient or if ‘air with water cooling’ is needed. Any other issues specific to the project.

4: Now armed with data specific to your project, you can proceed with confidence.

Cheers OzeLouie
OzeLouie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2022, 17:34   #2
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,883
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzeLouie View Post
Adding refrigeration step by step.
The following simple process will assist in providing a satisfactory refrigeration project outcome, enabling selection of the most suitable system type / capacity and provide a power consumption estimate to enable power resupply to be addressed.

This suggested process is based upon the Refrigeration Industry’s practices and protocols.

1: Obtain and advise project cabinet details including dimensions, wall thickness, insulation properties (if possible), inner lining material, access type, maximum environment temperature likely, number of persons to service, and if to operate as all fridge, all freezer or a *combination fridge /freezer (*advise portions) Also any other issues specific to the project.

2: Forward these details to your refrigeration company / suppler for analysis. Their analysis should provide estimates of cabinet capacity, hourly and daily heat load, system duty cycle (% of run time, should be less than 50%) and 24 hour power consumption. See example here: https://www.ozefridge.com/system-estimate Have a copy of your estimate emailed for reference.

3: Discuss project details and expectations with supplier. Discuss the system type options as there are basically three recommended each with a range of capacities and each with their own merits. Check for best location of evaporator in cabinet, best pipe run route and length. Establish condensing unit location particularly regards ventilation and if ‘air cooled’ only is sufficient or if ‘air with water cooling’ is needed. Any other issues specific to the project.

4: Now armed with data specific to your project, you can proceed with confidence.

Cheers OzeLouie
KISS, an acronym for keep it simple, stupid, is a design principle noted by the U.S. Navy in 1960. The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore, simplicity should be a key goal in design, and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2022, 00:32   #3
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Ozefridge, Yarroweyah Australia
Boat: 2017
Posts: 267
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
KISS, an acronym for keep it simple, stupid, is a design principle noted by the U.S. Navy in 1960. The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore, simplicity should be a key goal in design, and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
You can say that again Richard!
Following the Refrigeration Industries practices and protocols is obviously the only simple and proven pathway as described in post 1.
Refrigeration physics and thermodynamics do not need 'reinventing' as to do so is impossible.

It doesn't need complicating or expanding therefore the KISS principle is apt.

Cheers OzeLouie
OzeLouie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2022, 20:40   #4
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,883
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzeLouie View Post
You can say that again Richard!
Following the Refrigeration Industries practices and protocols is obviously the only simple and proven pathway as described in post 1.
Refrigeration physics and thermodynamics do not need 'reinventing' as to do so is impossible.

It doesn't need complicating or expanding therefore the KISS principle is apt.

Cheers OzeLouie
Louie, there is nothin wrong with your excellent marketing plan. Can you name three of the pleasure boat ice box conversion refrigeration industry companies practicing your protocols and practices as described in post number one.
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 01:14   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 6,433
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

KISS is:

1. Buy a standard refrigerator at the store
2. Add electricity mods to account for new refrigerator
3. Install
4. Enjoy ice cream from freezer
__________________
Epoxy can kill me like a kid smelling peanuts across the lunch room. Even the freshly machined dust from cured epoxy. Please don’t suggest using it.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 01:26   #6
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Ozefridge, Yarroweyah Australia
Boat: 2017
Posts: 267
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Louie, there is nothin wrong with your excellent marketing plan. Can you name three of the pleasure boat ice box conversion refrigeration industry companies practicing your protocols and practices as described in post number one.
Not a marketing plan Richard but a process for selecting the correct system and one that is 'fit for purpose. This plan as presented in post 1, is applicable to all product brands and is aimed at avoiding disappointment later. Surely you have also seen many failed projects where a 'boy has been sent on a mans' job.

Regards naming / demeaning other companies, sorry I don't play that game! Besides apart from Rich Boren who I know operates direct to client with an excellent product and one on one support as we do only suppling suitable equipment, I have no comment on other operators policies.

Regards Refrigeration industry practices and protocols.. These apply to all refrigeration applications similar to the established best practices employed by all industries and professions world wide. Of course it is possible that the millions of fridge industry practitioners who follow proven industry guidelines
are all wrong and you alone have nailed it..
As an example if you go to the doctor with a sore throat and he tells you about HIS unique procedure while requesting you lower your pants and bend over... RUN!

Sorry but ONE SIZE does not fit all! And guesswork doesn't qualify

The importance of correct system selection is indicated in this example here:
A 150 litre fridge cabinet with 50mm walls operating at +2C in a +25C environment will cope quite well albeit greater than the desired 50% duty cycle.
This system would run approx 81% of the time powered by a BD35 and 73% with a BD80.
All good but cruise off into the tropics with unit operating in 45C heat and it all goes pear shaped.. (Just when you need good refrigeration the most. )

The same system / cabinet would require a 135% duty cycle for operation with a BD35 and 120% with a BDE50. Total failure but not the fault of the unit, its flat out going no-where!, but a failure due to not ensuring that the equipment is fit for purpose in the first place.
A Heat load estimate would have identified the need for a larger capacity refrigeration system and / or better, thicker cabinet insulation.

And thrill of acquiring that 'off the shelf aluminium system will fade after about the third hot beer!

Cheers OzeLouie
OzeLouie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 01:59   #7
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,883
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Thanks Louie for responding to my question. I am only trying to support all the companies in our industry equally in these difficult times.
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 04:29   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,884
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Chotu has it right about what constitutes KISS. Given need for freezer, I'd also mention Engel type units in addition to adapting household refrigerators.

There are two broad areas where assistance in refrigeration is needed: Design, and Installation. Low demand for Design. High demand for Installation. Your approach seems to focus on Design - get it right. Makes sense but I doubt there is a virtual company there. Why would I pay you when I can either do it myself via OEM tech support, or have a local marine refrigeration company do it for me as part of the total install?

Rich and his watermaker business is a great example except its not analogous to what you're trying to do. He sells a product. You're trying to sell a service. A service that is available locally or via OEM or DIY research. With all the precharged kit on the market, it's pretty crowded.

I see you specialize in Eutecric systems. For some reason, best I can tell, these are being replaced. They are out of favor. Probably because the evaporator systems have gotten so much better. And it's difficult to find technicians skilled in refrigeration let alone Eutecric systems. And proliferation of solar with hi-capacity battery banks remediate benefit of engine driven compressor. I'm not saying I agree, just that's the trend

BTW - what ever happened to R-Parts ( https://www.rparts.com/)? They had a similar business model but seems to have evaporated over the years- a fraction of the size they once were. A lot of the custom options in refrigeration such as vacuum panels and hatches seem to have dwindled.

I wish you luck.

Peter
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 18:36   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: PNW
Boat: 35 Ft. cutter, custom
Posts: 458
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Probably because the evaporator systems have gotten so much better.
Peter
At a basic level I take some issue with that.
Decades ago, the 12V package units, (read Danfoss,) used very small capacity condensing units hooked-up to a pressed aluminum evaporator.
Today, whilst the condenser units have a little more capacity, most are still the same iteration with the pressed aluminum evaporator.
Sure, now they vary the speed and give you some blinking lights, big deal, that's not a "so much better" in my world.
Oh, now they have nice shiny enclosures and better fans, ok, score a point for appearance.
Oz has some nice Stainless evap plates, certainly good, but nothing new, I made a few, lets see,, about 30 years ago.
With today's larger batt banks, big alternators, and the proliferation of solar, the ability to use excess electrons to store BTUs in a eutectic plate is better than ever, given the demise of the old engine drive systems.
The hurdle today is the dearth of eutectic plates at reasonable sizes/costs.
Even though I generally detest the "Danfoss styled" units I find myself recommending them to sailors as the "go to" for most uses, as they are so readily and inexpensively available.
The Rich Boren system using a eutectic plate gets high marks, it's a good system that has had a very long period of development and operational sucess, but no question the eutectic plate/TXV drives-up the cost.
Of course, if one has the space/volume on their boat to "use up", the same advances in power generation and storage can also use an inverter to operate a REAL 1/4>1/2HP 120VAC condensing unit that is reparable/serviceable virtually anywhere in the world without the use of proprietary parts, (stabbing holes in eutectic plates not included).
Bowdrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 19:22   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,884
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

I went through this calculus a couple years ago as I contemplated a total refit. I seriously considered a eutectic system. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized the basic Danfoss style compressor with aluminum evaporator is essentially what has powered literally millions of fridges. 20-30 year service life is common. And I've seen dozens of 25+ year old boats with ancient Danfoss compressors still ticking along. Some look pretty tired. But they seem to just work.

So I asked myself - what problem am I trying to solve? Longevity? Reliability? Efficiency? Simplicity? Cost? Ease of installation? Availability? What exactly is the Achilles Heel of the simple àir cooked Danfoss and simple evaporator? No doubt there are incremental benefits to other systems such as eutectic, but so what? At what cost? I paid around $800 for each my fridge/freezer units. Like many, I have a decent sized solar array (800w) and a decent LFP bank (700ah). Energy isn't rationed as closely as it once was.

In the end, my version of KISS was I chose the largest air cooled Danfoss-style system I could stuff into my box with as much space for insulation as I was willing to sacrifice.

Challenge wasn't the design. It was the fabrication. Given the wealth of information available but the dearth of hands on technicians to actually install stuff, I just don't see a strong market for the OPs business model.

Peter
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 20:06   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: PNW
Boat: 35 Ft. cutter, custom
Posts: 458
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Challenge wasn't the design. It was the fabrication. Given the wealth of information available but the dearth of hands on technicians to actually install stuff,
Peter
You raise points that are quite valid, and I can't disregard the almost total takeover of the market by the 12V package Danfoss units, the "Peoples Unit" for the masses.
Perhaps, (no, I know,) I'm part Luddite and Romantic.
I've fabricated/built, (or sourced,) eutectic plates and climbed into boats with a crate of selected components, a bucket of fittings, a couple rolls of tubing, and a torch.
Scenarios in which you "build" a system that will satisfy the owners requirements.
You're probably right, those such as I, (who build,) are today, few and far between those who simply "install" something that arrives in a box.
I still prefer discrete components, isolatable by valving, filter/drier/sight glass/moisture indicator/TXV/eutectic plate/commercial temp/pressure controls, and bulkhead mounted high/low gages.
I suppose I'm old school.
Bowdrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2022, 22:08   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 5,293
Images: 7
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
KISS, an acronym for keep it simple, stupid, is a design principle noted by the U.S. Navy in 1960. The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore, simplicity should be a key goal in design, and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
I dunno Richard.

In my 50 or so years in the oil industry I have experience with a plethora of systems and my experience is that the only ones which work well are those which run downhill.

Now, when I use the expression "run downhill" I mean that they only work well when it's easier to use the system than any of the alternatives.
__________________
Satiriker ist verboten, la conformité est obligatoire
RaymondR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2022, 16:07   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 1,883
Re: Adding Refrigeration (KISS method)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
I dunno Richard.

In my 50 or so years in the oil industry I have experience with a plethora of systems and my experience is that the only ones which work well are those which run downhill.

Now, when I use the expression "run downhill" I mean that they only work well when it's easier to use the system than any of the alternatives.
Raymondr why do you think this OP from beginning to end is causing us to think we must run uphill? I thought Rube Goldberg depicting unproductive complicated tasks and gadgets to simple problems is now what this uphill thread has duplicates.
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
refrigeration

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kelsall - KSS Build Method geekclothing Multihull Sailboats 52 08-10-2008 15:38
A bimini construction method forsailbyowner Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 25-09-2007 19:52

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.