Have an alternator question

[River Runner]

Thanks again everyone. The sailboat has a starter battery with two house batteries. My typical day is to unplug from the marina, sail down the San Joaquin river down to the San Francisco Bay and back. It has a trickle charger when plugged in and a solar panel. For now I’m going to keep it simple.

Rob

[witzgall]

Chris from Balmar here.

At the most basic level, the difference between internal and external regulation comes down to charge voltage. An internal regulator has a single voltage. It needs to be low enough that it will not damage the batteries when continuously charging, and the batteries are full.

For Lead Acid batteries, either flooded or AGM, they also need a higher voltage to keep sulfation down to a minimum. A single stage voltage cannot do that, and still be safe for continuous charging.

Add to this that a higher voltage can push more amps to a battery that is able to accept the additional power. So by raising the voltage when the batteries are < 80% or so, the charge times can be lower.

These are the reasons that almost all shore power chargers are multi-stage. A higher voltage for bulk charing, and then hold that voltage until certain parameters are met and then lower the voltage to float the batteries while full. An external regulator such as the MC-618 does just that.

So faster charging and better and safer for the batteries.

Chris

Originally Posted by more

how is external regulator charge more efficient. The only difference between the internal or external alternators is where the regulator is.

difference is betwen alternator.
for example best is LIQUID COOLED ALTERNATORS high class military ,aviation, marine.
iskra
http://www.iskra-agv.cz/us/pdf/alter...uid_cooled.pdf

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by more

how is external regulator charge more efficient. The only difference between the internal or external alternators is where the regulator is.



difference is betwen alternator.

for example best is LIQUID COOLED ALTERNATORS high class military ,aviation, marine.

iskra

http://www.iskra-agv.cz/us/pdf/alter...uid_cooled.pdf

As found in many high end cars BMW for example

However there is no evidence they are any more reliable !!

[more]

Originally Posted by witzgall

Chris from Balmar here.

At the most basic level, the difference between internal and external regulation comes down to charge voltage. An internal regulator has a single voltage. It needs to be low enough that it will not damage the batteries when continuously charging, and the batteries are full.

For Lead Acid batteries, either flooded or AGM, they also need a higher voltage to keep sulfation down to a minimum. A single stage voltage cannot do that, and still be safe for continuous charging.

Chris

Chris Standard use for a yacht marine battery is lifepo4 , Lead Acid batteries is still in use for charter boat and day-wekend user .
But in future all service batteries in boat be lifepo4.
today European Japan(around 80%)alternator internal regulator is state of art designed to work to 100-120°C and last 5+ year. High class car mercedes S klass big BMW, is truly high power alternator bulid to work long time on high power. all have internal regulator.
but for 1 your alternator i buy 10 120 amp alternator
lower price to 200-300$ for 120 amp alternator and regulator,and be competitive on tiny marine market

[Grattaway]

If you are buying a replacement alternator check that it has a connection for your tach - usually they do but some dont unless requested

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by River Runner

Thanks again everyone. The sailboat has a starter battery with two house batteries. My typical day is to unplug from the marina, sail down the San Joaquin river down to the San Francisco Bay and back. It has a trickle charger when plugged in and a solar panel. For now I’m going to keep it simple.

Rob

You are doing the exact right thing. More folks would do well to follow you. I am one of them. Smart regulators and huge banks are marketed to folks who mostly read too many magazine articles from the techies who make money selling articles in magazines supported by the sales of over priced electrical components. If you understand the application of words like "acceptance rate" of your batteries and do an actual computation of your usage and charging practices, you would not want to pay $1300 to assure that your batteries are chronically undercharged--a situation I would guess that most folks end up with. Most folks would do well to outfit exactly as you are doing. From someone who learned the hard way and still has too much sophisticated equipment for my actual needs.
Ray Durkee

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by Pete the Cat

You are doing the exact right thing. More folks would do well to follow you. I am one of them. Smart regulators and huge banks are marketed to folks who mostly read too many magazine articles from the techies who make money selling articles in magazines supported by the sales of over priced electrical components. If you understand the application of words like "acceptance rate" of your batteries and do an actual computation of your usage and charging practices, you would not want to pay $1300 to assure that your batteries are chronically undercharged--a situation I would guess that most folks end up with. Most folks would do well to outfit exactly as you are doing. From someone who learned the hard way and still has too much sophisticated equipment for my actual needs.
Ray Durkee

As in all boat systems, the electrical system needs to match the boat's intended use. High output alternators and large banks are essential for long term cruising and extended times off the grid. They are not necessary for day sailing and marina hopping.

For many folks the middle ground is best, an externally regulated alternator and a medium sized bank.

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by Dave Lochner

As in all boat systems, the electrical system needs to match the boat's intended use. High output alternators and large banks are essential for long term cruising and extended times off the grid. They are not necessary for day sailing and marina hopping.

For many folks the middle ground is best, an externally regulated alternator and a medium sized bank.

I will just repeat that folks should do the math and have a battery monitor to compute their usage and needs. I spent two years cruising off the grid in Central America and, in retrospect, my external regulator really did not help--in fact--I think it mostly resulted in chronically undercharging the batteries had I not complemented the charging cycles with an external generator. I doubt if anyone is going to write an article -- or more likely,be able to sell one to the magazines--the outlines how the smart regulators generally result in undercharged batteries. The advertisers will protest. Acceptance rate matters too--I doubt if many folks who spent thousands on systems have done the actual calculations. The smart regulators are generally programmed to provide less rather than more amperage over time. The tapers using make fully charging through the alternator a very very long process--I have had several generations of them in my boats. The information is out there and becomes rather clear if you have a properly installed battery monitor that makes outputs and inputs to your system clear.

[captainwd40]

First ask yourself ..... why is the regulator external vs internal to the alternator?

Simple answer:

The majority of charging issues result from a bad regulator not alternator. So why would I want to go through the trouble of replacing an alternator with an internal regulator when I can just simply change out the external regulator.

I see a lot of boat owners that try redesign the systems unnecessarily to fit what they think it should vs the boat's design. Unfortunately many times the attempt is to repair or replace on the cheap with extra work throw in for good measure which usually ends up costing more in the long run.

I like the old adage if it ain't broke don't fix it ..... and if it is broke, replace it with original equipment even if it is a little expensive. Boat designers put a lot of thought and work into building a boat and you should keep it that way.

When I would work on boat I would see some weird stuff and always ask myself ...... now why would do something like that. I totally understand emergency repairs but they are only meant to be temporary fixes!

Good luck and godspeed!

Cheers!

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by Pete the Cat

I will just repeat that folks should do the math and have a battery monitor to compute their usage and needs. I spent two years cruising off the grid in Central America and, in retrospect, my external regulator really did not help--in fact--I think it mostly resulted in chronically undercharging the batteries had I not complemented the charging cycles with an external generator. I doubt if anyone is going to write an article -- or more likely,be able to sell one to the magazines--the outlines how the smart regulators generally result in undercharged batteries. The advertisers will protest. Acceptance rate matters too--I doubt if many folks who spent thousands on systems have done the actual calculations. The smart regulators are generally programmed to provide less rather than more amperage over time. The tapers using make fully charging through the alternator a very very long process--I have had several generations of them in my boats. The information is out there and becomes rather clear if you have a properly installed battery monitor that makes outputs and inputs to your system clear.

A good battery monitor is essential, no doubt about that. An external regulator that is not programmable is no better than an internal regulator that is not programmable.

My experience with external regulators is not the same as yours. The Balmar 618 that I am currently using is programmable, it does not under charge the battery nor does it over charge them. I can adjust almost all of the settings to have the alternator output optimized for my batteries. With the SG shunt I see in real time all of the alternators operating parameters. The one shortcoming is the regulator relies on voltage at the battery as a proxy for amperage. It would be better if, like the Wakespeed regulators, it used actual amperage going into the battery.

[loneshark64]

Originally Posted by EngineerRetired

My position, take the one you have to a good rebuilding shop and have them go through it. Lot better than buying a replacement IMHO.

Can somebody recommend a good shop for having a marine alternator rebuilt? I had one fail and replaced it and it looks like the old one can be fixed.
But I don’t want to make an experiment of doing it myself and I don’t want to search about for local auto shops. A send-away recommendation would be appreciated.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by River Runner

Thanks again everyone. The sailboat has a starter battery with two house batteries. My typical day is to unplug from the marina, sail down the San Joaquin river down to the San Francisco Bay and back. It has a trickle charger when plugged in and a solar panel. For now I’m going to keep it simple.

Rob

Yea for your usage you are setup ok. We survive ok too with no smart regulator but almost always use solar for charging & just with PWM controller. Had mppt controller bought from China but that lasted one week.Wasnt that cheap either

We have a 12v start battery but it's not connected as the pair of 225 amp ( probly only 100 amp actual capacity lol) 6v handle our 8hp engine starting load easy as.
Wouldnt try to fight the tide up the San Joaquin tho with our tiny engine.
In fact I had to modify our 55amp alternator to reduce its output so we get some charging whilst motoring.
Spent 9 mths at Bethel harbour marina once, had a good time.