Women in Boats..and how to become one

[Livia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimSails View Post
Some of the responses from men to this thread show exactly why many women would appreciate a women-only sailing class.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by CaptsWife

Exactly.

Double exactly.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Livia

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimSails View Post
Some of the responses from men to this thread show exactly why many women would appreciate a women-only sailing class.

Exactly.

Double exactly.

Okay, serious question about this. And keep in mind that I've taught a LOT of women to sail, professionally. As well as coaching (men, & women) to the highest levels of the sport. In addition to having won a garrage load of trophies at said levels. Ditto on teaching cruising, & the skills needed for same.

That said, it seems to me that one pretty much cannot much use a loud command voice onboard, without severe interpersonal repercussions.. 10x more so with women. Even when the situation warrants it, such as when someone's in danger, doing something dumb (dangerous), & or, there's so much other noise onboard that using a loud command voice is the only way to be heard. And these kinds of situations & circumstances are a part of sailing by it's very nature. Such is an unarguable FACT.

Yet even in the rare instances that I've needed to exercise such a tone as the vessel's sailing master. Sailing master being key, as at times when in that role you have to bump the skipper out of the way & take over, due to possessing superior depth of knowledge so as to be able to handle the situation well. But when I use said voice, with women it tends to leave some scarred (& scared) as if they'd just had a close encounter of the worst kind, with an angry 500kg grizzly bear.

And even simply giving commands in a moderate voice (as opposed to polite, soft spoken "requests") can often do quite the same. Even when done in a moderate tone, & volume level.
Let alone when I mandate repeat backs of orders, so that I & everyone else onboard, knows that the recipient there of understands the order(s), & will in point of fact, carry it out. To the safety of everyone onboard.

Yes, I fully understand that women learn differently than men. As well as that when I use my command voice, it tends to make both genders do a trouser check. But that kind of sensitivity rarely works onboard, especially in more adrenaline packed situations. So while I HATE pandering to folks sensitivities: What's a better way to do things in such scenarios? If in fact there is one (or several) others.

The above definitively theme of looking for a way to address someone gently is not about allowing them, or multiple crew to save face. Nor is it a character or skill judgement about them on my part. It is but a part of the reality of the sport. And if you doubt this, crew on a serious, high level racing boat for a day, taking note of the style of some/many of the interactions onboard. Along with the volume level onboard EVERY boat; before, during, & after mark roundings. As well as during a race's starting sequence.

If a boat's crew is well honed, & experienced, little enough of the above is needed, nor present. As everyone knows their jobs, the timing of when to do them, & what to do if an emergency begins to unfold. So as to shut it down before it truly becomes one. But on a boat with a partially trained crew, or really, a boat not fully crewed by experts (& or pro's), volume as part of communications is absolutely needed. Given that things can unravel without a moment's notice, thus negating most of the earlier pre-manuever verbal walk through entirely. Thus necessitating... you guessed it, command voices, yelling, & some sailing acrobatics.

And no, not all sailing is racing, but similar chains of events still unfold on cruising boats. This, with far, far fewer crew to handle them. So what then is the "PC" plan? Ain't no point in having a sailing/skippering/or coaching style which damages or terminates a marriage. But putting the boat onto the rocks, getting someone maimed, or losing crew overboard due to poor comm's isn't viable either.


Thoughts?

[angelfish2]

Thank you UNCIVILIZED for such a "robust" posting. I have one thing to say...yelling AT someone is not the same as yelling TO someone. Oh, and I have a second thing to say....any instructor who had a boat with me in it anywhere near rocks would literally freak me out....not the rocks...the instructor.

[UNCIVILIZED]

LOL, we used to have contests to see who could tack the closest to the rock seawalls on the Severn River, while teaching students. Don't recall anyone ever kissing it, but we sure came damn close on many on occasion.

Your point about yelling TO vs. yelling AT is a much welcomed differentiation. Though even that kind of yelling is too much for many, sadly. Especially given that some people can't tell the difference when they're on the recieving end, due to their stress level already being quite high. Along with genetics, & or, cultural conditioning.

And many a time, yelling AT a person is the only way to get them into action. And the only option, if the situation is serious enough. Yet even though it's quite warranted, it may have long term repercussions.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by angelfish2

Thank you UNCIVILIZED for such a "robust" posting. I have one thing to say...yelling AT someone is not the same as yelling TO someone. Oh, and I have a second thing to say....any instructor who had a boat with me in it anywhere near rocks would literally freak me out....not the rocks...the instructor.

You may consider this to be part of the story: in real life as a skipper you might very well encounter this kind of problem. Misbehaving kids, husband, coast guard, pirates... Yet, you still have to steer with a cool head.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by GTom

You may consider this to be part of the story: in real life as a skipper you might very well encounter this kind of problem. Misbehaving kids, husband, coast guard, pirates... Yet, you still have to steer with a cool head.

How does this address the problems of;
- Crew who are 40' from you when you can't leave the helm
- Motivating frozen crew into action from any distance away
- Communication over wind, sea, & other abient noise
- Crew not understanding commands, due to any or all of the above, & needing new, rephrased instructions

You can, & truly "should" keep a cool head as the skipper. But the problem of communicating with, & motivating crew frozen by fear still remains. Ditto if they don't understand sailing terms well enough to do what you're saying, so that you must restate it in simpler verbage. This is the reality, regardless of how simple or elegant the solution is that you've worked out to the problem inside of your head.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by angelfish2

Thank you UNCIVILIZED for such a "robust" posting. I have one thing to say...yelling AT someone is not the same as yelling TO someone. Oh, and I have a second thing to say....any instructor who had a boat with me in it anywhere near rocks would literally freak me out....not the rocks...the instructor.

Is it time to repost this classic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MRunq1y2_A

[Pelagic]

LoL Stu.....that was hilarious!

I have recently hired a new Filipino crew who completed his Commercial Mates license last year.

Great kid, Very keen to cruise with us on Stargazer, but has never sailed before.

Think I will show him this on Monday.. [emoji83] [emoji1]

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

LoL Stu.....that was hilarious!

I have recently hired a new Filipino crew who completed his Commercial Mates license last year.

Great kid, Very keen to cruise with us on Stargazer, but has never sailed before.

Think I will show him this on Monday.. [emoji83] [emoji1]

Have him take the "so you want to be a bowman" test --> BowmansUnion SailHead Magazine Extreme Sailing™

[gamayun]

I've been on boats (racing and non-racing) with both yelling and non-yelling skippers, which included males and females in both categories. I believe the fundamental differential is communication skill. Those that did not yell anticipated what was coming up and prepared the crew, telling the crew ahead of time what to expect and what they wanted them to do. There's rarely any forewarning from the yellers. That's not to say there is never a "commanding voice" from the non-yellers, but if you're not expecting it from them, you know to jump into action on the rare occasions it happens, then ask questions later. You just build a trust that is implicit and based on respect. It's powerful to see the results of that and, to those who care about such things, very desirable to emulate.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by StuM

Is it time to repost this classic?

OMG, funny, yet not really yelling. I once crewed on a 1D35 in a South Beach race with all new crew (red flag number 1) whose skipper said at the onset, "safety is number 1, racing is number 2 (red flag number 2). The whole time, every command was screamed out with the F-word in it: "blow the F'in vang", "trim the F'in jib", "get on the F'in high side." At one point, he told me to go to leeward and fix the GoPro. I said, no way, we'll do it next tack. So he turned to the youngster on board who ended up half in the water, but got the GoPro turned right again then scrambled back up with nothing to hold onto. The kid's father was there, too. It was appalling. We came in first.

[Pelagic]

Unfortunately, Racers are like the Military, they purposely put themselves or Others in harm's way and often default to drill sergeant language.

But there are times when you need to yell in a commanding voice, especially on large yachts of significant tonnage.

First to Freeze an action and person who is about to do something very dangerous to themselves or others.

Second, to UnFreeze a person distracted by an event that has stopped them from completing a dangerous task..

Stern Docking Super yachts I am quietly in radio communication with the Chief Officer on the stern and the Engineer on the bow who is managing the anchors. But the CO is giving the orders.

But often on commercial piers or floating docks in adverse conditions, when someone fouls up and tries to use brawn rather than brain.....they will hear a very loud voice from me, clearly yelling STOP!

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

LOL, we used to have contests to see who could tack the closest to the rock seawalls on the Severn River, while teaching students.

LOL, I think most women would take a bit more relaxed approach and call 100 feet off more then close enough. Why put the boat in danger should something break or fail at the last second. A bit crazy in my eye's.

As to the testing and the girlfriend failing. Come on. Guy has many years experience, girlfriend most likely far less so. Learning boating from a book or classroom is not all that easy. Even for the new CA license exam.

I do not race. I did it once and that was more then enough, thank you very much. Nor do I crew. I pretty much single hand more then 99 percent of the time. The few times I had other sailing women aboard they remarked at my relaxed mode with sailing.

Oddly many times I sail the Rose like a dinghy, standing in front of the wheel with both jib sheets in one hand, steering with the other.

I don't think I've ever yelled at anyone while sailing. It's not required if you know what your doing.

Yes sailing has been predominately a mans sport. But more and more women are learning and enjoying sailing as stereotypes get reduced and or challenged.

I'm in the process of installing a windlass, by myself, at anchor. My biggest challenge is figuring out how to raise the 60 pound motor and gearbox up to the underside of the deck. It's a old Ideal vertical Brass and steel. I do have a plan. Same with engine fix'n, I have a LONG breaker bar that allows me to compensate for strength I don't have.

and No my earlier post was not sexist in the least. Just true. Luckily in the bay area there are women to women sailing schools and quite a few women captained boats. OK still not many but I'm surprised at how many women sail and single hand.

BTW why is it the woman who drops and raises the anchor and does the dock lines. More time then not that's what I see. Generally with some shouting. I would think a strong man's back would be more suited for anchor duty and dock lines. Come on guys, let the women helm, that's the easy bit.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

BTW why is it the woman who drops and raises the anchor and does the dock lines. More time then not that's what I see. Generally with some shouting. I would think a strong man's back would be more suited for anchor duty and dock lines. Come on guys, let the women helm, that's the easy bit.

Yep, this is how we do it. Except for docking, which my wife doesn't feel confident in doing.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Oddly many times I sail the Rose like a dinghy, standing in front of the wheel with both jib sheets in one hand, steering with the other.
That's a great way to to do it. And if you time it right, you hardly need the sheet winches on a boat that size.

I don't think I've ever yelled at anyone while sailing. It's not required if you know what your doing.
What about when the "fit hits the shan"? Or when ambient noise levels drown out conversational level volume speech?

I'm in the process of installing a windlass, by myself, at anchor. My biggest challenge is figuring out how to raise the 60 pound motor and gearbox up to the underside of the deck. It's a old Ideal vertical Brass and steel. I do have a plan. Same with engine fix'n, I have a LONG breaker bar that allows me to compensate for strength I don't have.
You might try using cribbage. A pair of 4x4's (or 2x4's) laid in parallel to each other on a strong flat surface, underneath of the item to be lifted. Then jack it up a little bit, & slide in another pair of 4x4's, on top of, & perpendicular to the first set. And repeat this until the heavy object is close to the right height. Then switch to using wedges in between it & the cribbage, or the flat surface & the cribbage. After you stabilize the cribbage of course. To get the item into the final position.

Note that when using this technique on a boat, you may wish to secure each layer of cribbage to the one above or below it. And I'm thinking that long drywall screws, toenailed in, should do the trick. But am open to other ideas. As I've only used this technique on land.

and No my earlier post was not sexist in the least. Just true. Luckily in the bay area there are women to women sailing schools and quite a few women captained boats. OK still not many but I'm surprised at how many women sail and single hand.

BTW why is it the woman who drops and raises the anchor and does the dock lines. More time then not that's what I see. Generally with some shouting. I would think a strong man's back would be more suited for anchor duty and dock lines. Come on guys, let the women helm, that's the easy bit.

They've done some surveys of couples about the above, as it really, really does make a lot more sense. But the feedback that they've gotten is that the vast majority of women aren't confident enough to take the helm for such manuevers on a boat of size, especially 40' or more.

But yes, it seems bass ackwards to me too. And usually, I'll get my date to drive, especially for anchoring, even if she's a total newby to sailing. Making her confortable is mostly in the coaching. That along with the confidence level, & experience of the skipper.
It's not as if driving the boat to drop or pick up the anchor is rocket science. I'll let anyone with a touch of maturity who can see over the cabin house do it, even if they have to stand on the cockpit seats to see well. And I do the same for docking, unless it's a really hairy day.

Sometimes it pays to get the skittish adult ("wife") to coach kids, grandkids, or guests through docking or anchoring. Tends to bring them out of their shell a lot. And the more you teach, the better you know & understand the subject.