Women in Boats..and how to become one

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by picklemomma

Wow. For a long time lurker, this is my first post and all I can think to say is WOW. When I took my 103/104 combined course, and pointed out a FINE looking monohull on the dock, my instructor pointed out that the owner (male) was single. Yes, I am a female, but I can afford to buy my own F#n boat and I'm married! I was asked several times why my husband wasn't taking the course. Uh, because he doesn't need to and I'm the one that wants to buy a boat? I know what a hypotenuse is, by the way. I make six figures and I want the boat. Not my hubby, but I'm pretty sure I can convince him. He can fish off a sailboat but I can't sail with a bass boat. Oh, and I'd LOVE to take Pam's class except that I've already got a Cat lined up for next week and can't justify two trips to the BVIs in one fiscal year.

Welcome to CF Pickles.... Sorry that your first post was a result of any M~V teasing....especially on my part
My partner of many years teases me mercilessly and I couldn't live without her.
For us, it is a game of equals that keeps us both grounded and laughing.

Hard to express that on a Forum.

[knockabout]

gender re-assignment or buy one other than that let one find you / they seem to be a different species but we can breed with them / I find it hard to live without one and they are hard to train / after a lot of years I find I may have been trained by the female on board

[UNCIVILIZED]

Seems like a lotta' heat & 'tude flying around CF today for some reason. To little good effect. It's just sailing guys.

[DenverSailors]

My wife is really interested in this class. She tells me she has a hard time learning fro me because I yell on the boat or something...blah blah blah. HAHAHA!!! Flying from Denver, however, is time and cost prohibitive. Please let us know when you might offer this on the mainland. We'll be at the boat show in Annapolis in October, if you might present a day session.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Here's an outtake from the above link I put in on http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-161019.html If you bother to read it, it explains a LOT of the why behind the reasons behind the so called need for sailing instructors with XX chromosomes:


I guess what follows is a bit of an article of my own on the topic. To try & explain some of the history behind the question. And the origins of the current Sailing Gender, state of affairs. Plus what's transpired in recent history to change it. As well as some of the obstacles to change.

Sailing's been a Boys Club, for a Very, Very Long Time. As in many centuries; in all aspects of it. Military & Recreational. So there's a lot of inertia right there, to overcome.
Even for couples, who at home, divide up the household equally, with no gender roles to any specific chores attached to any (or very few of them).

- In the mid '80's, when I started racing (Pro), women were virtually non-existent in that aspect of the sport. As in far less than 1 in 20. Ditto in recreational sailing. Albeit in the latter, the numbers were a bit higher. But mostly only for the day sailing type of sailing.
And when I was learning the "racing game", say from '85-'90. Out of the likely 50+ coaches which I had, only 1 was a woman.

- 1989, Skipper Tracy Edward had almost a nigh on impossible time finding both support & crew for the 1st all Female Whitbread crew (a RTW Race - the Precursor of the VOR) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracy_Edwards

- In the early '90's, when I worked for America Cubed, they really had to beat the bushes HARD in order to find crew for Mighty Mary ('94-'95 Women's America's Cup Team). And even then, we had to teach most of them how to handle, as well as race a big boat. The depth of experience simply wasn't out there. Sadly

- '95-'97 I took a breather from racing to rebuild some boats, do deliveries, etc.

- '97 Got recruited back to racing, & there were a Plethora of Women, everywhere in sailing. At least at the Yacht Clubs, & in mid-level racing.
I met my then GF via club (PHRF) racing,. She both raced & skippered a racing boat (she still does).

- 2000 On, the numbers of women in sailing grew rapidly, but... The number of women who can, or are, skippering Big Boats, is still small. Especially professionally, & or as Owners; which are/is the wellspring of Sailing's culture.
Meaning that those in charge, both set the rules, & are the role models to which others aspire.

There aren't few women in the marine trades, & or professional sailing. Which is where the depth of knowledge for sailing really starts, ditto on "trickle down sailing":
Rigging, Sail making, Boatbuilding, Sailing Instruction, Boat Care, Sales, Navigation Teachers, Skippering (Professional type) & the stepping stones leading up to same...

Also, like the article states. And this is key Women Learn Differently. So that since most (sailing) teachers are male... Though, I for instance, learned this difference early on.
By having few gender specific roles in the house, & by continually being around Female Sailors; Including Skippers & (Boat) Owners.
And as a result, I will often get recruited to teach women to sail. Everything from basic classes, to full on, trying to bring home the trophies, racing. As in I teach racing while we’re out there competing at the same time.

Some of it comes to me via the sailing schools of a few different friends, & some of it's fully freelance. When a group of women @ a Yacht Club will put together enough sailors who want to learn,In a calm environment sans yelling.
Also, BTW, classes exclusively for women tend to be great (& superior IMO) ways for women to learn; sailing, & to be in charge of the boat when things get hairy.

The Yelling thing is BIG, as in Traumatic for most women. Enough so that even if it’s warranted by the situation @ hand, it can turn some off to sailing, forever. And it's tough for a lot of guys to get this. Especially on the water, where it's often difficult to be heard due to environmental noise, boat noise, & the screaming on boats (very, very close) nearby, when racing.
~ As, coming into a mark rounding on a race course sounds like a cocktail party heard through a 1,000w amplifier which is being slowly turned up, as you near the mark.

So in order to teach women; both the teachers, & some of the "what is taught in what order, & where", must be recalibrated. With the first thing to be taught & established, is rapport, connection, & safety (personal/emotional boundaries, & physical safety; as in how emergencies will be headed off before they happen; as well as how they'll be handled with calm, reassurance, & low drama as possible).

For instance, on a boat, it's rare for me, or one of my close sailing mates to yell, unless:
-> Someone, personally, or an item of extreme fiscal value is in danger. This even applies when I'm racing with guys, & I have a feel for (or will have asked the owner) what $ amount of gear I can let the crew break, or get close to breaking before yelling.

As for sailors to learn, you have to be okay with letting them screw up, as well as break things, & then learn from their mistakes.

Which, isn't the easiest thing to learn to do as a teacher. And some folks, guys especially, who are used to always being in charge, & having things run smoothly, their way, simply cannot (won’t let themselves) learn as much.

Although, this is changing. And there are more women in racing. Most importantly, in the role of Skipper, Tactician, & or Owner. - And They Are FAR more likely to be out cruising, & taking on more proactive roles onboard, in dealing with stressful situations, which require being in command. Both pre-planned for, as well as on the fly.

As for some examples about learning when Not to Yell:
At this point, I'll let things on a racing boat, where folks are always still learning (but it's not somewhere that you normally teach much), get to where I'll let guys destroy a $5K sail, or grab them & pull them back onboard just as they were about to go swimming. That, or stop someone from doing X just seconds before their actions would have brought down the rig. Etc.

And in most circumstances like that, a guy's instincts & training (since he was little) are to yell at whomever he just stopped from making a BIG mistake. Which, with women generally leaves a geometrically deeper scar; from the trauma of the incident, & then of the berating afterwards, while already likely being terrified.
So, a good depth of experience is needed in order to teach like that. And also to do so while at the same time coaching people at the highest levels; for regular sailing, & or, to win upper tier level races.

-> The other obvious time for yelling, is when it's just too damned loud to be heard otherwise. But even then, I make every effort to get as close to the person as is physically possible under the circumstances... working on creating a rapport & a physically intimate connection thing,: And then tell or yell at them what they need to be doing (& why - also a Key item).

The "Why"item is key, & explaining it (especially to women) helps SO MUCH...
I particularly make a point of having a "Chalk Talk" before a complex, & or, loud evolution. Explaining to everyone; what's going to happen/what the goal is. Who's doing what, why they're doing it, why they got picked for that specific job, how their job relates to everyone else's role as well as the big picture.

Ditto on what might go wrong; X, Y, & Z... and what the possible solutions for each of those are. Plus, what's the preferred one, when, & why.
Including making sure that everyone's up to speed on things. Whether there are questions.
And... without making them feel as if they're being put on the spot, asking a hesitant seeming student (discerned via body language), to explain "Part X" of the evolution, or similar.

Much of this, which when teaching (& learning by) men, isn't gone into in nearly so much depth. Nor covered even in 1/3 of the detail mentioned above. Instead, fixing & learning things on the fly. Sometimes conversationally, & equally as much of the time, via yelling. Yet rarely does this leave “marks” on guys.
Albeit it’s not the best way to teach. Fully explaining things, as above, tends to be.

Also, guys won’t necessarily ask questions if they're unclear on something, during a "chalk talk". And as an instructor, unless you really know what to look for/are paying attention, recognizing the subtle signs of a guy who's unsure, can be a bit harder to pick up on (than in women). Especially if it's not something you're used to doing with people.

Plus, there's the flipside to that: A large percentage of guys won’t hesitate to ask questions if they're uncertain about how an evolution is about to unfold, why part X, or Y of it is important. Or why they were selected for this role/job, over that one.

A LOT of information, I know, & I hope that some of it’s helpful.

One other thing to consider about Women & Sailing, is to think on how many of the skills involved are technically, or math/science based. And how society treats such topics with relation to gender.
Ditto on how many women tend to have experience with engines or electronics before beginning sailing. And not to overly stereotype, but how many of them own a Multimeter, or a Socket Set, vs. your average guy?
Such things set a lot of the ground work for attitudes, knowledge, experience, & Especially Mindset, prior to ever stepping onto a boat.

[Sandero]

SUre the average guy possesses the skill set that makes sailing easier to get into. But if a women is interested and smart she can do whatever the average guy can... it's not rocket science. I got into sailing without a socket set or knowledge of engines.... never even changed the oil on one. Electrics and boat plumbing is very simple... anyone can do it... and understand it.

Below decks AP installs can be difficult.... for either gender. It takes planning....

Sailing skills have no preference for gender.

The gender argument is lame. I know many women who sail and some who own boats... Look at Tana Aebi... and Laura Dekker...

You don't need a goils only school... come on...

[picklemomma]

First, I would like to apologize for coming off so strong yesterday. I was having a bad day...
All of my sailing instructors have been great, really. And I don't mind being yelled at when I'm screwing up, as long as someone explains it to me afterwards. We always had dinghies growing up, but I never "learned" to sail. I was just told to pull this line that way and when. I wasn't learning the mechanics and dynamics of sailing. I still have so much to learn, but the classes (whether there are tests at the end or not) are a foundation only. The only way I'll continue my education is to get out there and sail. And us women need to know that there are more experienced sailors than us (both men and women) that will help us learn. This forum has taught me so much already, and is an invaluable resource. Oh, and I certainly am not lauding my certifications because sailing for a weekend and taking two tests isn't going to make me proficient. I'm a work in progress, and hope to remain so for the rest of my life.

[picklemomma]

Oh, and to Uncivilized, spot on regarding your comment about knowledge of engines. It's just not something that women of my age/generation were taught anything about. Fortunately, one of the sailing schools in my area offers a day course on Diesel engines. I plan on taking that course.

[a64pilot]

I'm still wondering why you need all these classes, male or female?

[markpierce]

My girlfriend attended a basic boating instruction class with me: two days of lectures. I got a 100% score on the final exam. She failed, despite having a PhD and a greatly superior memory. What the heck!

[picklemomma]

And you felt the need to call out your girlfriend for failing on a public forum, why? Maybe she needs a new boyfriend! She's welcome to come sail with me.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by picklemomma

And you felt the need to call out your girlfriend for failing on a public forum, why? Maybe she needs a new boyfriend! She's welcome to come sail with me.

Come on! Are you frickin serious? The only way anyone will know that it's her that failed that test is if she signs up using the handle "markpierce's girlfriend". And that's assuming that he isn't dating someone else by then.
I can tell you, almost without question, that a guy's response to a similar, but gender reversed comment, would be quite different. Why this battle of the sexes BS ??? By now it should be pretty obvious I've no problems sailing with women. But methinks your true colors are (again) showing, as in similarly to yesterday's comment.

If a guy's GF wipes the floor with him on a sailing exam, he can (& WILL) expect folks to bust his balls about it. And for months, or years afterwards. Hell, his grandkids will hear about it. So we should treat this differently why exactly?
A 40x winch can't tell the difference between the chromosomes of the grinder, nor can a buoy at 0300.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by markpierce

My girlfriend attended a basic boating instruction class with me: two days of lectures. I got a 100% score on the final exam. She failed, despite having a PhD and a greatly superior memory. What the heck!

??? What training/exam was it? E.g. the RYA doesn't do any exams before costal skipper level, just assessment...

What's the message btw?

[Kentm]

We met Pam at the miami and seattle boat shows with my wife. We're a year or so out and I would like my wife to spend time learning from Pam. Pam Wall is a wonderful role model and I would love for my wife to spend time learning from her. I like these classes are not test based and are hands on.

My wife Kathy is brave in a boat and smart, I'd like her to feel the confidence in her self that education and achievement bring. I want my wife on the boat and I want her to feel STRONG and smart and capable. I feel Pam can help her feel confident.

One question, I have tried to get more information on this class, but have not got a response. Is Pam out sailing? Is she slow with E-mail? (so am I)

Kent

[angelfish2]

This thread kinda makes me sad. Wouldn't it be great just to hear a response like, "oh, that's cool...sounds like fun?" If my hubby wanted to go to a seminar hosted by Donald Street or Nigel Calder, I'd say "take notes and have a good time."

From my own personal experience I have discovered that sailing is indeed, a man's world. Historical evidence shows that it has been traditionally that way. There's no doubt about it, however I sure do not see any harm in gals sailing and also wanting to learn more about it. If they feel more comfortable with a woman, (who BTW, is far more experienced than most guys I know), so be it.

For my part, it doesn't matter if it is a guy or gal, just as long as they are knowledgeable and soft-spoken. There certainly are a lot of folks out there with a whole more knowledge than me and I would be stupid not to want to learn more.