Where do we flag our boat?

[ingonoka]

I think I will take my chances with the Dutch and maritime laws. And, I was told that if I register under Dutch flag I'll get a cool letter from the queen.

(Btw - compared to Dubai, Amsterdam is a kindergarten. I have lived in south east Asia for 12 years and have never seen anything quite like what is going here. )


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[BandB]

Originally Posted by Arthur Garfield

Gibraltar is my first thought.Additionally, one must consider what is OP aim?
Costs,location....
Being that VAT has been paid a big tax hit no longer exists.So, I think ease of flagging would be next.All countries welcome vessel registration for the $.What is the aim of OP??

Gibraltar has more German boats documented than those from any other country.

[leitgib]

We left Europe in 2013 and are now in French Polynesia. We choose Marshall Islands because it was easy, they have offices everywhere. Our goal was to avoit EU VAT as anyway, we where leaving. Seems you can sail under non-EU flag (ie. no VAT) providing you touch land every now and then outside of EU. Now and then = 6, 12, 18 or 24 months, the régulations change permanently. We considered going to Tunisia for, but when we left the régulations just changed and allowed us longer EU stay, and we finally cleared out of Europe in the Canaries after 7 months in EU waters.

[dlymn]

boat registration and VAT status aside, you also need to have the right papers to sail in a country. Some countries such as Greece want all sorts, others like Spain seem to leave all of that to Marina managers. Although there might be official requirements, it's more honoured in the breach than in the observance.

In Spain, I think I needed to show insurance papers (and money). We only sailed in the Costa Brava area. in Greece, I needed radio operator's licence, boat operator's licence, VAT papers, Passports, Crew list, insurance papers (in Greek), ownership papers and others depending on the whim of the port of entry officer I happen to deal with each year I go there. Still not sure how much I have to pay to enter Greece this year.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seymore

If the boat is to be federally registered, it must be registered and flagged in the country where the owner is a citizen. You have US passports, so it must be flagged US.

If you and the boat were in the US, it could be licenced in any state. Perhaps that's what you're thinking. But that wouldn't work out for international cruising (except maybe in, for example, the Bahamas or Canada, where they're used to lightweight cruisers ).

False.

Most countries, including the UK and Germany, register boats according to residence, not citizenship.

And all countries register absolutely anyone's boat, if you set up a company in that country through which to own it.

An EU flag, probably German if you are a legal resident there, is logical and will make cruising around Europe easier. However tax status is not connected to the flag, so it is also possible to have a non-EU flag.

Here's some information on registering a boat in Germany:

Registrierung Int. Bootsschein

Internationaler Bootsschein IBS - Bootsregistrierung - ADAC

That's for the "Internationaler Bootsschein". Over 15 meters LOA there is a different registry; Google is your friend. The Deutscher Seglerverein is the German equivalent to the RYA; they even have some delegated authority (I think) to deal with these things. In any case, it looks like you need a tonnage survey -- "Messbrief" -- which is a slight PITA if it's anything like the UK one and will be hard to do if the boat is not physically in German waters.

As a foreign citizen, you do need proof of German residency ("Wohnsitz") to register a boat in Germany:

"Ausländische Staatsbürger, die in Deutschland wohnhaft sind, müssen eine Kopie ihres Reisepasses sowie eine aktuelle Meldebescheinigung über Ihren festen Wohnsitz in Deutschland vorlegen."

That means you need to submit your passport and Meldebescheinigung -- police registration certificate -- that's all the proof of residency you need.


Before deciding to go for German registration, however, you should consider the requirements there for licensing of the skipper, safety, etc. -- they are fairly burdensome -- typisch deutsch. And taxes.

You might find it simpler to register in the U.S. or in the U.K. U.K. is a really good flag -- almost no bureaucracy and zero taxes. But you will need a UK company.

A U.S. flag in Europe is theoretically ok, but you will be subject to customs control at every border crossing and will have to answer questions about tax status -- as EU residents you have no right to the 18 month exemption. Since your boat is tax paid, that's legally ok, but you will have to constantly prove it, and there are risks that some official somewhere (probably in Spain or Greece) won't accept your documents and you will have some real problems. This bothers me somewhat because there is no really clear definition of what "proof" of VAT status is -- original invoices, but how about the chain of title to you? What if you lose just one document out of your file? There is a presumption that a non-EU flag boat is NOT VAT paid which you will have to overcome every time; an EU flag boat is subject to the opposite presumption.


That leaves UK, which is a fine flag to have. I am a US citizen with a UK flag boat, but I am not a UK nor European resident, so I had to do it through a UK company. This is simple and inexpensive -- you can set up a UK company online in about 15 minutes. I cruised through the waters of 10 European countries last year, and it was very nice to have a respectable EU flag -- no customs inspections, no questions other than about passports of crew. My boat is on the Part 1 registry, so registered like a ship (UK boats under 24 meters and owned by natural persons don't actually have to be registered whatsoever, or can go on the Micky-Mouse SSR, which is like our VHF license -- lucky Brits). You need a tonnage survey if the boat has never been on that registry before, but otherwise it is painless and is valid for 5 years at a time (vs 2 years for the German IBS). You get a very pretty certificate which impresses foreign officials.

Good luck.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BandB

And for those non citizens who start talking about circumventing that with a Corporation and all the other things, I only ask "Why?" Don't complicate your life. Take the simplest path. I live in Florida. I document US and register Florida. I have one boat registered in Florida and use tax paid in Florida and I've owned it 6 months and it's still a few months away from making it to Florida the first time.

I heard all the arguments of registering off shore. But really they all centered around chartering which we don't intend to do.

Registering through a company is not circumventing anything - it's a completely normal practice. 99% of ships are registered this way.

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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ingonoka

In my case the simplest path is unfortunately not obvious. I live in Dubai, but don't want my boat registered in the Middle East (not sure whether it is even possible). I am a citizen of Germany, but cannot register my boat there because I am not a resident of Germany. I could create a company just for registration, but I had to do this for a small plane I bought in Malaysia, and it was a real pain ... So, right now I believe Holland is the place to go, but it is not easy to get reliable information about Dutch regulation either.

Check out Belgium while you're at it. AFAIK, there is no residence requirement for EU citizens.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CHAZ

ingonoka I think that for your situation the Belgium flag is what you are looking for

Belgium flag : Boating registration in Belgium

And who ever knows the difference between a Belgium and a German flag

Pashenkova, as a US citizen and German resident you should have the choice between the two.


Martin

Not being an EU citizen, Belgium won't work for Pashenkova without a Belgian company.

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[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

False.

Most countries, including the UK and Germany, register boats according to residence, not citizenship.

And all countries register absolutely anyone's boat, if you set up a company in that country through which to own it.

I see lots of great info in this post but I clarify two points that may be misleading.

- Yes, the UK Registers will register boats owned by residents of the UK that are not British, but ONLY IF THEY ARE CITIZENS OF ANOTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY (there is a more detailed definition).

- Yes, in the US a foreigner can set up a company and get federal "documentation" (US dialect for national registration), but the company needs to be "controlled" by US citizens. The detail of this is long, but basically you need to hire some "front men" who are US citizens to act as officers of the corporation.


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[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

I see lots of great info in this post but I clarify two points that may be misleading.

- Yes, the UK Registers will register boats owned by residents of the UK that are not British, but ONLY IF THEY ARE CITIZENS OF ANOTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY (there is a more detailed definition).

- Yes, in the US a foreigner can set up a company and get federal "documentation" (US dialect for national registration), but the company needs to be "controlled" by US citizens. The detail of this is long, but basically you need to hire some "front men" who are US citizens to act as officers of the corporation.


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US Citizens or US Residents? There is a difference. So which is it?

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

US Citizens or US Residents? There is a difference. So which is it?

US citizens. Residence does not matter for USCG registration aka documentation, or at least it didn´t when I was a legal US resident and spoke to the federal Documentation Center or whatever it is called.

C

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

US citizens. Residence does not matter for USCG registration aka documentation, or at least it didn´t when I was a legal US resident and spoke to the federal Documentation Center or whatever it is called.

C

A non citizen can be a controlling party of a US Corporation. A corporation has its own personage. Re-confirmed by the US Supreme Court in a recent ruling concerning political donations. Many foreign non US citizens and in fact US non residents have Delaware or Maryland registration.

I do realize that US State registration is different to that of US Federal registration. Which raises other questions. Like do you need a US Federal registration if you have a US State registration? I know you can have a US Federal registration without a State registration as long as you don't stay more than 90 days in a given US State. Or pay the respective States sales or use tax.

Can you please cite the Federal US law that says you must be a US Citizen in control of a US corporation for that corporation to be allowed to register as the owner on the Federal Register?

Thanks.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Can you please cite the Federal US law that says you must be a US Citizen in control of a US corporation for that corporation to be allowed to register as the owner on the Federal Register?
Thanks.

What is wrong with 46 CFR 67.39? I presume you refer to a boat for recreational use, in which people get away with nominees for hire. For other uses there are more requirements that mean "real" control. Jones Act, etc.

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Can you please cite the Federal US law that says you must be a US Citizen in control of a US corporation for that corporation to be allowed to register as the owner on the Federal Register?

Thanks.

From this USCG link
USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page


Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens. In addition, at least 75% of the stock must be vested in U.S. citizens for a coastwise or fisheries endorsement.

I hope this helps a bit.

Fair winds

Martin

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

A non citizen can be a controlling party of a US Corporation. A corporation has its own personage. Re-confirmed by the US Supreme Court in a recent ruling concerning political donations.

I do know that any idiot (including an "alien" idiot) can control a US corporation. I am a living proof of that, but that has nothing to do with boats. Not every corporation is deemed to have the "citizenship" to own a US-flagged boat.