USCG Six Pack license sea time fraud

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by finnegan

I am interested in hearing others thoughts on the sea time requirements for the USCG 6 pack license. I have noticed a few social media posts of individuals claiming licenses while also admitting their ignorance of basic seamanship in their posts. I don't want to call out anyone in particular but how credible is the license without a significant resume to back it up? Is there a lot of fraud in the documenting of time.

I am a teacher at an independent school. I am planning on leading some sailing trips with students. While I have skippered on my family's boat and bareboat charters. I think having a licensed captain aboard is appropriate. We would likely be using a bareboat charter company. Due to the need for background checks I will most likely have to hire a US national for the charter.

Regards,

We have state issued drivers licenses and many drive a lot of miles.. but still don't know the laws.. No different with a USCG cert. In fact, I see many mis-quotes on this board regarding rules and COREGS. Like anyone you hire, do your diligence. (200T USCG Master)

[Leighpilot]

Definitely a problem. The exams are very simple and coaching will get you through. It’s a problem in aviation too but our practical tests do weed out the incompetent. They’re not easy. But not every country is so rigorous.

Look at the latest crash in Pakistan is a prime example. It’s being reported the pilot had a faked licence.

[BobMc]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

You can log sea time simply being a deckhand whose only responsibility is to untie the dock lines at one end of a run and tie them up again at the other end.

In the in person course which I took a number of years ago from SeaSchool, one of the students admitted that she was a cook on a pontoon boat cruise that left a local dock a couple of times a day for a couple of hours. She claimed she had enough hours to qualify. Most of the people in the course had actually gained some experience and a few of us owned our own boats ranging to trawler size, and understood most of what was going on. The downfall for a number was the chart work that required, most having never used a paper chart before (and this was before the almost universal reliance on GPS based chart plotters).

[Ratty1978]

Since you mention social media, I suspect that there is also a possibility that the "fraud" is that they are saying they are a credentialed master when they are not. There are a ton of illegal charters advertised. Sure, logging sea time when you first apply, which is reviewed before credentials are issued, permits "recollections" -- supported by a statement under penalty of perjury -- that might be exaggerated. But I just completed a 6 week Captain's Class. I learned substantive things, even with years of experience, and hope my sharing with classmates improved their knowledge. I'm an offshore sail racer, several classmates were powerboaters and I've known the primary instructor for years, so there was a lot of seriousness, mutual respect and plenty of room to share experience. Being a sailor, I always carry a knife, and everyone was amused when the topic of a marlinespike came up, and I was asked to show the powerboaters the one I carried -- everyone simply assumed I had it. But you can operate a boat safely even if you can't splice. The 100 ton exams were not easy (OK, sailing endorsement was, for me) and did demand good knowledge of seamanship -- in a broad sense, including navigation, rules of the road and regulations written for safety reasons as well as the general seamanship exam. Maybe different Captain's classes are less informational and maybe OUPV only is less demanding.

[Ratty1978]

Originally Posted by BobMc

In the in person course which I took a number of years ago from SeaSchool, one of the students admitted that she was a cook on a pontoon boat cruise that left a local dock a couple of times a day for a couple of hours. She claimed she had enough hours to qualify. Most of the people in the course had actually gained some experience and a few of us owned our own boats ranging to trawler size, and understood most of what was going on. The downfall for a number was the chart work that required, most having never used a paper chart before (and this was before the almost universal reliance on GPS based chart plotters).

I found the chart work kind of fun. Yes, I have paper charts on the boat, and only use them for backup for when the electronics fail. Pencil in the Lat Lon from the GPS so you know where you were when the power goes off. Electronics are great for route planning, too, and learning whether you're using decimal minutes or minutes and seconds reinforces what you need to do with the scale on the chart. The class got me to collect all my old drafting tools so I had backup dividers, pencil lead holders and lead sharpener. Both the instructor and classmates appreciated my bringing in drafting tape for classroom work. I practiced with both parallel rules and the rolling plotter with protractor and scale, plotted each answer for the exam twice and scored 100.

[Lihuedooley77]

I have not read thru all of the posts, but I do have a U.S.C.G Merchant Marine Officers license for vessels up to 100 tons , 500 tons near coastal.
The 500 tons was upgraded by the U.S.C.G, on my 5 th issue. I did not request it. You have to renew the license every 5 years. Actually worked as an instructor, charter capt, flotilla leader, and deliver skipper for 36 years. World wide.

I had to have 720 days of documented sea time, in order to sit for the original license. Then renewed every five years. i got my sea time as an instructor and charters...but I could not list that time as skipper, it had to be crew.

My sea time for the original license was verified by the sailing clubs computer records and my own log books, it took me five years .

The six pack, was for a max of 6 passengers . And I believe 360 days of documented sea time.

I have no tollerance for liars, cheats, or puffed up B.S warfrats. Or for those who have no licenses taking out passengers for hire, yapping away at the dockside bar, and who put down those of us who busted our okoles to earn our sea time, and learn seamanship, sailing, motor vessels, regs, , coastal piloting, marine weather, emergencies, rough weather sailing, long passages, etc., and have actually had a career in Sailing and Motor Vessels, world wide

The O.P, might just concentrate on his own qualifications, and gaining the experience he needs to apply for the U.S.C.G lic. Depends on how serious the person is.

Also, strongly suggest possibly on board classes with a sailing club , with U.S.C.G. lic, Instructors that has a good reputation and is serious about sailing and seamanship. learn from the pros , plus adding in your own experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep a professional log, and keep it up to date.

Vessel name, type of vessel, date, times, LOA. Registration number, departure port, en route logs, arrival port, weather, and sail plan, etc.

Be professional and take gaining knowledge in sailing, seamanship, navigation, etc, seriously. Even then, we will never know it all.

You need that lic, if you are sailing for hire. Follow procedures.

Also, strongly suggest a U.S.C.G testing prep school. ( class room ) Usually several weeks and you will learn things that you did not even know existed. Extremely informative and you will be on the edge of your classroom seat, drinking up every ounce of the information.

As well as having that six pack license, what really counts is what it took to sit for the test. You have your 360 days of sea time, you have gone thru professional instruction from U.S.C.G licensed instructors, and you have attended the U.S.C.G Lic. prep school, and you have passed U.S.C.G the written at their testing faciltiy.

And you have amassed all of the required documentation, and take heed.
The U.S.C.G is a military organization, with military bearing, be early, be groomed, alert, and respectful, and have all of your documents in order.

The outcome of all that effort should make you a more knowledgeable and safe skipper. Then you continue to add to your sea time, and experiences,
and who knows, you may after a few years want to upgrade to your 100 ton.

Just FYi, I am also an FAA commercial pilot, flight instructor, corporate pilot, and air combat instructor..5 and 6 Dog Fights. 6500 hrs total Pilot in Command time.

Point being, after nearly 40 years of those two concurrent careers, I have found that following procedures, being professional, and having an amazing and fun life, is the best way to go.

Just wanted to share actually first hand experiences with U.S.C.G Licensing.

[Cadence]

It would appear putting Capt. prior to your name might be the ego trip with a six pack?
Getting an AB is probably a lot harder.

[CaptBobR]

I have a 1600 Ton License upon Oceans and used to own a USCG Approved school. I think maybe half of the people we trained for 6 Packs really didn't;t have a lot of seamanship experience nor ocean sense.
They passed the exam and got the license but truthfully a 6 pack license is mostly a day license for a few hours trip.
The real issue is you cannot advance your license without greater tonnage experience. If all you do is drive a 4 ton boat, you'll only qualify for a limited license forever no matter how much of a seaman you are

[Lihuedooley77]

Like to share, my first experience before the U.S.C.G testing office. we had mentioned the U.S.C.G and Military bearing.

I arrived 15 minutes early. From the service, you relieved the watch 15 minutes early.
That still is my practice today, no matter what I am doing.

I was next in line, on time, and all set with my paperwork. The Lt. motions me forward.

Whammooo ! An unkempt, non shaved, messy haired, dirty clothes dude, rushed in front of me, jummping the line, and takes a handfull of loose paper work, and slaps it on the LT's desk top.

The LT. takes his paper work, looks at it, looks at him, and says.

YOU ARE LATE, TAKE BACK YOUR PAPER WORK, AND CALL FOR ANOTHER APPOINTMENT FOR YOUR TEST. Now, this D.S. starts to argue with the Lt.
Obviously that did not work, and the sloppy dude does a 180 and leaves.

Again, I am cleared, and greet the Lt. with a " Good Morning, Lieutenant . " and hand him my paperwork. it is all printed out, in order, application, sea time, finger prints, recommendations, etc.

He looks over the list of many, individual types of vessels from 27 on up to 55 ft.

I did not ask, The Lt, asks me, DO YOU WANT TO TEST FOR THE 100 Ton.

Yes, sir, I would.

That test was several different evolutions, and most of them I had to score in
the 90 percentile, a couple were 70 percent. If you did not pass the test section that you just completed. You stopped, done for the day, and could return the next day to re take and continue on. Whew ! I passed all of the sections.

But, I still had the Navigation section, it was late afternoon, and my brain was a little tired, so I came back the following day and completed that. Passing grade was 90% .

Point being, besides being organized, I acted professionally, shaved, groomed, nice sweater and shirt, ironed pants, etc., and prepared to pass that exam.

After passing the Navigation test, I was then presented with my 100 ton certificate.

That was my experience many , many years ago.

[CSY Man]

. STCW is required for off shore or near coastal routes on some vessels.

Got the STCW on my 100 ton coastal ticket without taking any extra STCW courses, possible because of my back ground, not sure. (Air Force Fire Fighter, Merchant Marine OS and Tanker Man, etc.)

The big thing now is random drug testing and alcohol tester onboard the boat as well as numerous forms in case of accident or casualty onboard.

[capnorv]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Here is a decent summary of the different endorsements of the OUPV/100T licenses. When I received my USCG 100T Coastal Waters 22-years ago, the exam for OUPV and 100T are identical.

I did not find the exam simple at all. Class I took was ten 8-hour days with the exam on the final day - took about 4-hours to complete. Of the 20 people who started the course, 4 dropped out enroute, and 5 did not pass the exam. I can absolutely say that the study work for the exam was time well spent with or without the license.

https://www.boatwise.com/faq.html

I agree completely, and I didn't get my license after passing the course due to non medicated high blood pressure (probably caused by anxiety of being at a doctor). Eight years later, I still have the knowledge gained, but no way to legally get the seatime. And I'm in the maritime industry.

[kmgiunta]

In the world of aviation, one can have 500 hours in the log book or 1 hour 500 times. I'm sure the same rule applies to seamanship.

[Jammer]

It is widely believed that there are considerable numbers of OUPV applicants who falsify sea time.


In the last year or two, the USCG has started enforcing the requirement that fishing guides on Lake of the Woods and Rainy River posses an OUPV certification. Generally these guides work part time during the peak fishing season which lasts about 2-3 months a year. They are out in boats that rarely exceed 20' in length, with outboard motors that rarely exceed 60 horsepower, on waters that have zero commercial traffic, during the day, within sight of shore.


There is no navigable connection from these two bodies of water, to any other body of water of any significance. To get to Lake Superior, you'd have to cross a rapids, a dam with no lock, and various uncharted shallows that, at best, might offer a channel a few feet deep.


Until recently the USCG didn't patrol the area and no one had an OUPV certification. As part of the overall buildup of law enforcement on U.S. borders, USCG has expanded their patrols into this area.


A bunch of 20-something fishing guides are now trying to document 360 days of sea time in order to keep doing what they've been doing.


Do you think they are being all brave and honest on the forms? Do you think they've done some guessing? If they spent 20 days a year for a few years, around 10 years ago on a boat that they no longer have any paperwork for, do you suppose they've taken some liberties regarding the certification? Do you blame them?


And do you think it is reasonable to require 360 days of sea time for someone working as a fishing guide on an inland lake in boats smaller, in some cases, than what CF members use for tenders?

[Ratty1978]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

Like to share, my first experience before the U.S.C.G testing office. we had mentioned the U.S.C.G and Military bearing.

I arrived 15 minutes early. From the service, you relieved the watch 15 minutes early.
That still is my practice today, no matter what I am doing.

I was next in line, on time, and all set with my paperwork. The Lt. motions me forward.

Whammooo ! An unkempt, non shaved, messy haired, dirty clothes dude, rushed in front of me, jummping the line, and takes a handfull of loose paper work, and slaps it on the LT's desk top.

The LT. takes his paper work, looks at it, looks at him, and says.

YOU ARE LATE, TAKE BACK YOUR PAPER WORK, AND CALL FOR ANOTHER APPOINTMENT FOR YOUR TEST. Now, this D.S. starts to argue with the Lt.
Obviously that did not work, and the sloppy dude does a 180 and leaves.

Again, I am cleared, and greet the Lt. with a " Good Morning, Lieutenant . " and hand him my paperwork. it is all printed out, in order, application, sea time, finger prints, recommendations, etc.

He looks over the list of many, individual types of vessels from 27 on up to 55 ft.

I did not ask, The Lt, asks me, DO YOU WANT TO TEST FOR THE 100 Ton.

Yes, sir, I would.

That test was several different evolutions, and most of them I had to score in
the 90 percentile, a couple were 70 percent. If you did not pass the test section that you just completed. You stopped, done for the day, and could return the next day to re take and continue on. Whew ! I passed all of the sections.

But, I still had the Navigation section, it was late afternoon, and my brain was a little tired, so I came back the following day and completed that. Passing grade was 90% .

Point being, besides being organized, I acted professionally, shaved, groomed, nice sweater and shirt, ironed pants, etc., and prepared to pass that exam.

After passing the Navigation test, I was then presented with my 100 ton certificate.

That was my experience many , many years ago.

I race sailboats where the penalty for being early is greater than the penalty for being late, but showing up on time is best. Making it easy for someone to do their job when it helps you anyway should be a no brainer.

[Ratty1978]

Originally Posted by kmgiunta

In the world of aviation, one can have 500 hours in the log book or 1 hour 500 times. I'm sure the same rule applies to seamanship.

Days are 4 hours off mooring. After that, it's more subjective than aircraft. Single screw, twin screw, lose an engine and you still float. The first time around, though, you can submit "lifetime" days at sea and good faith recollection is acceptable. For my pilot's license, in those days, a solo cross country was, like, 300 miles and I went 11 + 145 + 145 because I had to get fuel. I had to convince my instructor to sign off. I understand they changed it though.