USCG Six Pack license sea time fraud

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by old pirate

I remember a large charter boat that moved between US east coast and the USVI seasonaly. Two of the girls who worked in the galley wrote and passed the exam. Got their "captains licence"

.....and who would hire them to be a ship's master or anything other than a galley chef? With all due respect, I suspect folks who pass-on stories like these have near zero familiarity with USCG testing and verification and have no idea the amount of time and effort that goes into getting a license, even if you lie about credentials.

Is it possible to ace a test that requires 90% correct answers to pass when the field of questions number 14,000 possible questions? I suppose so. Is it possible to produce documents and logs that you spent at least 360-days aboard a boat? I guess. Is either easy? Hell no! Will you be hired by anyone other than an unsuspecting boat owner who doesn't know to check credentials and experience? No.

I'm proud of my 100T license even though it's been 20-years since I worked in the marine field as both a delivery captain who averaged over 220 days/year delivering; and a captain of a 74-passenger charter-dinner boat on San Francisco Bay. It provided a good living for me for a few years and I had a great time. I know there are wannabe's who walk the dock and figure out how to get a license, but they are exceptions, not rules, just as in any field.

Peter
USCG 100T 899414

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

I also (used to) teach the OUPV and 100 GT courses. Everything posted here previously is pretty much correct. The biggest weakness in the system is the self reporting of sea time on your own boat. You only have to prove you owned the boat and the CG pretty much has to accept whatever you submit as long as it looks reasonable. Just don't try to tell them you did 720 days in two calendar years or even four. Longer of you're up here in the cold and four to six month boating seasons. The exams are quite comprehensive, and while we do definitely teach to the exam, there's enough stuff there, least the way we did it, that of you absorbed enough to get enough right answers, you did learn a lot. As to the instructors cheating with sea time or exam results, the CG actively monitors the schools, even to the point of putting spies in the classes. They don't get away with much and one of the schools I used to work for just got their approval revoked.

QUESTION: What was the wash-out rate? In the class I took, about 40% either didn't finish or didn't pass the exam.

It's been a long time, but I recall going through old photos of the boats I was on to find pictures of registration numbers and then having the owners write letters for me. Maybe I over-did it, but the self-reporting piece was not easy. Let's face it, it's hard to document 360-days (or, in my case, 720 days). I admit, I fudged my numbers a bit to get over the 720-days but not much. And that still wasn't a slam dunk.

I too took a study prep class. The instructor was excellent and I learned a lot. "Old and New Reels Catch Fish, So Purchase Some, Okay?" Something like that.

Point being this is something you really want to have. Definitely not something you just decide to do on a bet. The folks who pass-on the easy-peasy stories are mostly dock-talk. Not saying it can't happen, but if you had some idea of the work that went into it, you'd realize the process alone weeds out vast majority of wannabes.

Peter

[wsmurdoch]

Here is the test. Take a try at it. The rules part requires a 90% to pass (70% for the rest). See how you do.
https://www.uscgq.com/uscg-rules-of-...-practice-test

I kept my 1986 OUPV licence until I moved to the UK, left my boat behind, and did not have enough sea time while I was there. I gave it up then. I did not renew it five years later when I returned to the US because of the continuing drug testing requirement, its hassle, and its cost.

I don't think the license is worthless.

Bill

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

QUESTION: What was the wash-out rate? In the class I took, about 40% either didn't finish or didn't pass the exam.

It's been a long time, but I recall going through old photos of the boats I was on to find pictures of registration numbers and then having the owners write letters for me. Maybe I over-did it, but the self-reporting piece was not easy. Let's face it, it's hard to document 360-days (or, in my case, 720 days). I admit, I fudged my numbers a bit to get over the 720-days but not much. And that still wasn't a slam dunk.

I too took a study prep class. The instructor was excellent and I learned a lot. "Old and New Reels Catch Fish, So Purchase Some, Okay?" Something like that.

Point being this is something you really want to have. Definitely not something you just decide to do on a bet. The folks who pass-on the easy-peasy stories are mostly dock-talk. Not saying it can't happen, but if you had some idea of the work that went into it, you'd realize the process alone weeds out vast majority of wannabes.

Peter

Originally Posted by mvweebles

QUESTION: What was the wash-out rate? In the class I took, about 40% either didn't finish or didn't pass the exam.

It's been a long time, but I recall going through old photos of the boats I was on to find pictures of registration numbers and then having the owners write letters for me. Maybe I over-did it, but the self-reporting piece was not easy. Let's face it, it's hard to document 360-days (or, in my case, 720 days). I admit, I fudged my numbers a bit to get over the 720-days but not much. And that still wasn't a slam dunk.

I too took a study prep class. The instructor was excellent and I learned a lot. "Old and New Reels Catch Fish, So Purchase Some, Okay?" Something like that.

Point being this is something you really want to have. Definitely not something you just decide to do on a bet. The folks who pass-on the easy-peasy stories are mostly dock-talk. Not saying it can't happen, but if you had some idea of the work that went into it, you'd realize the process alone weeds out vast majority of wannabes.

Peter

We had a few who didn't finish, but almost all who stuck it out passed. It was a grueling (for them and myself) 9 day course with the exam on day 10. The system we used worked well, but I wonder how much they remembered on day 11.

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Bear in mind a "6 pack" license was originally created for the launch driver at a yacht club to ferry "yachtsmen" to and from their moored boats.

It is a simple test with very little experience requirement.

M

In Canada, to get a 60 t ticket, I was required to write a test and provide 5000 hours of validated sea time Commercial. I had 31 years as a Coast Guard Auxiliary Commander of a unit. The inspector awarded me 4950 hours on paper and they tested my driving skills on a 50 foot tug boat and I had my papers. Now I want to upgrade to 60 tons Plus. I had to take a radar course and 60 hours sea time on a vessel of that size. I was mentored by a certified captain of 3000 tons ticket and believe me I was showing him different things and I was surprised to see how many things the Captain was unaware of... go figure.

[seabreez]

I must mention that the tickets I got were on inspected vessels and I had to show knowledge on the components of the vessel, engine room, communications, water systems, fire pumps, evacuation of passengers and the list is what ever the inspector throws at you...

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

We had a few who didn't finish, but almost all who stuck it out passed. It was a grueling (for them and myself) 9 day course with the exam on day 10. The system we used worked well, but I wonder how much they remembered on day 11.

The stuff about when to use CO2 fire extinguishers vanished pretty quickly. A great deal of the rest I retained. It was an extremely valuable learning experience that greatly advanced my marine knowledge. It was money and time well spent.

Thanks for taking the time to teach folks this stuff. I know you were paid for your time, but my guess it wasn't much. I don't remember my instructors name but I remember his face like it was yesterday. I was as proud to get my ticket as I was when I received my BS in Finance. I stayed in touch with many of my classmates for several years.

As Bill said, the ticket has value.

Peter.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

While the USCG sea time is self provided, it's not a total farce. You have to provide the vessel name, owner, documentation or registration number, tonnage, dimensions, and dates. A day is 4 hours or more. Fabricating 360 days (oupv) or 720 days (100t) has to pass a sniff test or the examiner will cry BS and kick you to the curb.

Someone who had spent a couple of day sails on my boat asked me (and others) to sign and date a blank form. I pulled my log and wrote the actual information and gave it back. Heard others had left him to fill it out. There are more than a million ways to cheat your way through life. I think the best way to get a sense of someone's competency is spend a couple hours on the water while they manage the boat. It doesn't take long to differentiate wheat from chaff.

That said, there is a lot of good info on the test that's important for anyone skippering a vessel. Even if someone fudges their sea time, passing the written exam is not nothing, in my opinion.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by gamayun

That said, there is a lot of good info on the test that's important for anyone skippering a vessel. Even if someone fudges their sea time, passing the written exam is not nothing, in my opinion.

And yet we often see people here who claim to hold a USCG OUPV certification but quote the "Law of Tonnage" and talk about a "burdened vessel" (often the same ones who call themselves "Capt Xxxxxx" and/or claim to be a "USCG Captain" ).

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

I think you’ll find that a lot of people can spend a lot of time on a boat, and learn very little. When I was in class for my license, I was shocked at the general cluelessness of the class, all of whom were coached into passing the test.

A USCG license is a Legal requirement to be paid for driving a boat, but it is no guarantee of competence. It is more of a hurdle to jump that weeds out SOME of the least knowledgeable.

For anybody hiring a Captain, the modern “Captain’s Schools” have made the license almost too easy to get. In the “old days” getting past the test and paperwork hassles of the USCG without a school coaching you were so intimidating you REALLY needed to NEED a license to work through it.

This is why the RYA Yachtmaster is so highly regarded internationally. The sea time can't be faked - and you don't pass a course just by virtue of having taken it.

LittleWing77

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

This is why the RYA Yachtmaster is so highly regarded internationally. The sea time can't be faked - and you don't pass a course just by virtue of having taken it.

LittleWing77

Does RYA open any commercial endorsements? Are there any regulatory requirements a RYA certificate satisfies? I don't know much about the certification beyond the usual comparisons to ASA training programs. Frankly, I don't understand those either at some level. Charter bases are quite liberal in their willingness to rent a boat to just about anyone with salty lingo.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

I’d say crossings have more importance than comms, that pretty easy, trending weather outside of data connections and working through issues beyond others help is a huge thing. Saftey I don’t think is much like common sense, though we try to sell the public that it’s something you can sell in a class, it seems more like something you ether get or don’t.

Probably falls somewhere in the middle though I would lean towards Slugs thought that coastal is more critical.

Taken to the extreme:
- If you are conservative, most ocean crossing are pretty uneventful. Once you get clear of the coast, there isn't a lot happening. There is some learning opportunity but not a lot.
- If you are a deck hand on a ferry, you aren't picking much either.

But if you are coastal cruising traveling new routes, dealing with shallows, currents, conflicting boat traffic (some small & some large commercial traffic), bouys, anchoring, etc... That will be much better forcing you to learn a wide variety of skills.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by StuM

And yet we often see people here who claim to hold a USCG OUPV certification but quote the "Law of Tonnage" and talk about a "burdened vessel" (often the same ones who call themselves "Capt Xxxxxx" and/or claim to be a "USCG Captain" ).

Being able to quote the legal language and operating in the real world are not mutually exclusive.

[valhalla360]

What exactly is an "independent school"?

Does it have assets or is it otherwise subject to lawsuits?

Regardless of the true value of the 6-pack...if you don't have a licensed captain while you are operating in a professional role and there is an accident, you and the school could be bankrupted in a heartbeat. (keep in mind, just because someone else did it for years and got away with it, doesn't mean it isn't a risk)

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Does RYA open any commercial endorsements? Are there any regulatory requirements a RYA certificate satisfies?

See here for what you can do professionally with a commercially endorsed yachtmaster certificate on British Flagged vessels at least:

https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-train...ompetence.aspx

...and here for details of the commercial endorsement:
https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-train...orsements.aspx

However...

Originally Posted by David Mark

You can always tell by what side of the boat the American Flag is on if they are a boater or a schooled Captain .

I can, however, vouch for the fact that it is entirely possible to obtain a commercially endorsed yachtmaster certificate without the faintest clue about US-specific flag etiquette. Fortunately British yachties are happy to be "boaters" and would never call themselves "Captain".