licenses

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Nope in most countries leisure vessel registry is available to all vessels, even where a leisure vessel registry is available.

There is no general law that you must be a citizen to register a boat. Yes some countries have such a requirement but the reality is much more varied.

Dave

I think you need to talk specifics. I'm not sure where you are from. Certainly in Australia you need to be an Australian citizen to register a vessel.

As all vessels travelling international waters are required to be registered with their home nation, what is the point of having a system that is so fragrantly abused? What countries permit anyone from another nation to register their boat in another country?

Well, apart from Panama which is well known for it's register for cash system and it's extremely poorly standard of sea worthiness.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I think you need to talk specifics. I'm not sure where you are from. Certainly in Australia you need to be an Australian citizen to register a vessel.

As all vessels travelling international waters are required to be registered with their home nation, what is the point of having a system that is so fragrantly abused? What countries permit anyone from another nation to register their boat in another country?

Well, apart from Panama which is well known for it's register for cash system and it's extremely poorly standard of sea worthiness.

I'll give one of many examples. Have a look at Belgium.

The flag a vessel carries is not typically an indication of the nationality of its owners , it's a claim that vessel is bound by laws other then the nation whose waters it is in. ( it's purely a claim by the way ) It's primarily purpose is to establish that it is clearly not a local boat. There are many many boats registered in one country whose owners are citizens of another

Furthermore many countries have no requirement that a vessel must be registered in the country of its citizen, Spain for example now allows external registration

The UK for example, allows residence as a qualifying reason, not citizenship. Nor does it require UK registration at all

Virtually all countries will allow commercial companies to register yachts irrespective of the domicile f the company

As I said you mis understand the purpose of flag registration.

A visit to any upmarket yacht harbour and a perusal of its fleet of superyachts will prove my point
I should say, that the reason for a codified registration system , ie documents etc, is to provide proof that a vessel has the right to claim the flag of registration that she does, again nothing to do with its owners

Dave


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[chuckr]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

None.

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Wrong , absolutely wrong.

we are an american boat with usa passports and a usa flag and registration. we sailed over in 2013 and asked for oue licenses in portugal and told we had now but had asa they ignored the license issue. In monthenegro this past summer we were asked for our license and told them i had none they told me i would have to leave their waters immediately. when i told them i had asa and showed them my book with the stamps they accepted that.

Croatia is the same.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by chuckr

Wrong , absolutely wrong.

we are an american boat with usa passports and a usa flag and registration. we sailed over in 2013 and asked for oue licenses in portugal and told we had now but had asa they ignored the license issue. In monthenegro this past summer we were asked for our license and told them i had none they told me i would have to leave their waters immediately. when i told them i had asa and showed them my book with the stamps they accepted that.

Croatia is the same.

Correct, Croatia and Montenegro ( which is often forgotten ) specifically require that you have a sailing competency certificate, they will accept many world-wide leisure ones.

Portugal often demands to see an ICC, but they is no requirement that a foreign yacht must have such a license, assuming it is not required in ones home waters. Portugal is a country of petty bureaucrats and they often overstep the legal requirements, as some harbour masters and harbour police, think that what applies to Portuguese citizens applies to foreign boats

Else where the ICC or some form of competency is sometimes required ( Greece being one) if you charter.

[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Firstly. Croatia does NOT require an ICC , what is does require is that the skipper has some formal sailing qualification and its accepts a wide variety of such qualifications , including ASA , RYA etc including the ICC.

the flag of the vessel doesn't protect you from the application of local laws. Your boat is not a diplomatic property. Its is not the " soil " of your country. You are subject to ALL local laws that apply , even if it seems they are not enforced.

The adoption or otherwise of resolution 40 does not prevent the issuing or recognition of the ICC. Many countries avoided signing it because they felt their own national regulations were or a higher standard ( or they had no licensing requirements all )

Dave

Be careful of the advice given on this board. It is sometimes incorrect. Below is an excerpt from a leading British Sailing School. RYA is NOT an acceptable qualification on its own. Still needs an ICC. ASA is a laughing stock and cannot issue an ICC. ASA was trying to get ICC compliant but it was rejected and will never have the ability to issue an ICC. When you take the IYT (International Yacht Training) courses, the ICC comes with it.

Lets get our facts straight instead of guessing or doing a 2 minute google search.



International Certificate of Competence ICC Explained

« Return to Blog | May 2, 2013 10:03 pm | Posted by Peter








We are increasingly being asked about what qualifications are needed when you charter or go on flotilla holidays in Europe. Turkey, Greece and Croatia are particularly popular sailing holiday destinations and over the last few years, they have all generally got more stringent in their demands for skippers of all vessels to hold certificates which indicate levels of competence.


The type of certificate you need to hold varies from country to country. A full STCW Certificate, which by international agreement sets the Standard of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping among professional seafarers is generally accepted, but this is a very high level qualification which is seldom held by leisure sailors.
When you charter overseas the yacht will not normally be UK flagged, and if this is the case, then you will need to hold a certificate which is accepted by the country in which you are sailing. Surprisingly, Royal Yachting Association (RYA) qualifications such as Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper and even Yachtmaster are not usually accepted on their own. Most often you will be asked to provide an International Certificate of Competence, or ICC as it is commonly called. Our best advice is to check with the charter / holiday company before you book and obtain written confirmation of what sailing certificate or licence will be required when you are on holiday.

International Certificate of Competence


The International Certificate of Competence (ICC), or more correctly the International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft is fast becoming the accepted qualification for leisure sailors in most European countries. Contrary to popular belief, the ICC is not of EU origin and isn’t the boating equivalent of the EU driving licence for road vehicles, which all EU member states are obliged to accept. It was originally created to allow pleasure navigation along the rivers Rhine and Danube and was adopted by The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) Inland Transport Committee Working Party on Inland Water Transport (A bit of a mouthful!). Its primary aim was to standarise the qualification needed to navigate these two great rivers, which pass through a number of countries; each of which had its own certification requirements.

[manuaruba05]

Surely, your answer are very helpful,
I have a dual citizenship: French and US. My boat will have my Us flag.
So after paying my vignette I will be clear of any other requirement needed to sail in Croatia, I am also understand that ICC is required to charter a boat.
Certainly I will get my ICC to get me a peace of mind if I want to be sailing in Mediterranean the next couple of years.
Thank you for all your feedback.
Emmanuel

[manuaruba05]

We are increasingly being asked about what qualifications are needed when you charter or go on flotilla holidays in Europe. Turkey, Greece and Croatia are particularly popular sailing holiday destinations and over the last few years, they have all generally got more stringent in their demands for skippers of all vessels to hold certificates which indicate levels of competence.

"From Google"
it says when you CHARTER.
I do no charter, I am US citizen, own my US flag boat, and understand that except the "vignette" and passport nothing else will be needed.
Is that correct?

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by manuaruba05

"From Google"
it says when you CHARTER.
I do no charter, I am US citizen, own my US flag boat, and understand that except the "vignette" and passport nothing else will be needed.
Is that correct?

No it is not correct. We are a usa boat with a usa flag and we carry usa passports. You will be asked for your license. We were able to get by with our asa book with the stamps and signoffs on the courses we took. otherwise you may have to leave the country. at least for montenegro and croatia.

[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by manuaruba05

We are increasingly being asked about what qualifications are needed when you charter or go on flotilla holidays in Europe. Turkey, Greece and Croatia are particularly popular sailing holiday destinations and over the last few years, they have all generally got more stringent in their demands for skippers of all vessels to hold certificates which indicate levels of competence.

"From Google"
it says when you CHARTER.
I do no charter, I am US citizen, own my US flag boat, and understand that except the "vignette" and passport nothing else will be needed.
Is that correct?

I would probably call someone in the know there rather than rely on answers here. I have heard of some instances (one) where the boater was asked to leave Croatian waters due to not having an ICC and it was his own boat. Rules have been changing last couple years with the ICC and CEVNI for inland and rumor is more are coming next year. It doesn't take all that much to get an ICC here in the US if you have experience just to be on the safe side.


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[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by chuckr

No it is not correct. We are a usa boat with a usa flag and we carry usa passports. You will be asked for your license. We were able to get by with our asa book with the stamps and signoffs on the courses we took. otherwise you may have to leave the country. at least for montenegro and croatia.

Exactly my point. Seems different ports have different rules at the moment. I know for a fact ASA and RYA (without ICC endorsement) will not be accepted in some ports. If you have ASA 104 you can challenge the ICC exam. Just a couple things that are different. IALA "A"and "B" for example. Good to know this if your not familiar. Avoids a head on collision. Sort of like driving in England VS the USA.


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[John Casey]

If you have obtained the RYA Day Skipper qual or higher, and are a member, you can get an ICC through them: http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...ICC%20Form.pdf

This is what we did.

Since you will likely find a different answer from every national juristiction and charter company (think of the person you are talking to with little/no English and not what their website says) you would be best served by something that is as close to universally recognized like the ICC. Even that doesn't cover all of Europe, but I think those rare examples will accept it as proof of your competence, as well as their own licencing.

Some will accept US, CAN, UK, AUS and others as acceptible but for me, I don't want to take a chance that the random enforcement officer will agree with such as opinion.

If you are going to head into inland water ways, you'll need the CEVNI Certificate:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_...ion_Intérieure

Also available through the RYA, but not just paperwork as for the ICC.

Google both and you'll find all kinds of info and ways of obtaining them if you're not an RYA fan.

There's probably some folks over at:http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/ that have been to where you are interested in, and could help you.

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Wor...d_Sailing_Wiki may give some useful info as well, but as advised above, since it's "just on the net" don't just take it as gospel.


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