Do I need a license to have paying passengers?

[welljim]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to work out the following but the information is so scattered around that I'm going in circles:

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- Assuming a boat with a Canadian flag, operating in Canada, what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

- Assuming a boat with a Canadian flag, operating outside Canada (please list for countries that you know, I'm interested in any destination), what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

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- Assuming a boat with a US flag, operating in the US, what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

- Assuming a boat with a US flag, operating outside the US (please list for countries that you know, I'm interested in any destination), what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

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- Assuming a boat with an EU flag, operating in the EU, what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

- Assuming a boat with an EU flag, operating outside the EU (please list for countries that you know, I'm interested in any destination), what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

__

Many thanks for your help!

[twistedtree]

In US waters, with a US boat, you need a OUPV (aka 6-pack) license for up to 6 passengers, and a Masters for more than 6. If you venture into Canadian waters, but are operating out of the US, I expect the US requirements would be accepted by Canada. But if you are chartering out of Canada, I'd expect the Canadian rules to apply regardless of the boat's flagging. I don't know if the USCG OUPV and Masters Licenses are accepted in Canada.

[barnakiel]

EU flagged - inside EU - no single rule. See under the actual country flag.

EU flagged - outside EU - limited by charter regulations of the country you visit.

I believe some EU flags allow for doing so with just a plain amateur sailing license as applicable to the specific craft.

b.

[carstenb]

What do you mean by paying? Are they paying a share of expenses? Or are you charging them for the trip (like a cruise ship)? Big difference. expensesharing generally doesn't require anything.

Paying passengers is another ball of wax. In Denmark - you will need a commercial operators license. Yachtmaster Ocean is not enough.

[bobconnie]

Ahh just be a little carefull even shareing expenses!! some of the Charter captains in the Gulf made complaints about un licesened folks advertizing for fishing trips on line shareing fuel and food and something for the deck hand ect and a bunch of folks got some healthy fines for doing this !! just saying watch what ya do without the proper papers !!

[Hannah on 'Rita T']

In the US, sharing expenses is a paying passenger. In addition to a country's regulations, your biggest concern should be what your insurance company requires.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by welljim

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to work out the following but the information is so scattered around that I'm going in circles:

__

- Assuming a boat with a Canadian flag, operating in Canada, what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

- Assuming a boat with a Canadian flag, operating outside Canada (please list for countries that you know, I'm interested in any destination), what license is required to have between 5 to 8 paying passengers?

What type of vessel? There is a difference between the Victoria harbour ferry and a charter sailing vessel.

You are bound by the rules of the country in which your vessel is registered. Canadian masters' tickets are much more difficult to get than US ones. There is no equivalent to a six-pack.

In 30 years of sailing I have 34,000 miles (3 passages), and over 1000 days of sailing and I do not qualify of a limited masters of any kind, because I have only served for about 25 days under a master.

You might want to spend some time on this site.

Marine Transportation - Transport Canada

[welljim]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Ahh just be a little carefull even shareing expenses!! some of the Charter captains in the Gulf made complaints about un licesened folks advertizing for fishing trips on line shareing fuel and food and something for the deck hand ect and a bunch of folks got some healthy fines for doing this !! just saying watch what ya do without the proper papers !!

Holly cow! Sophisticated turf protection, got zipped even when advertising online - i.e., out of site of the port!?!

[welljim]

What type of vessel? There is a difference between the Victoria harbour ferry and a charter sailing vessel.

Not a ferry or anything like that, just a regular sailboat. I'm trying to work out a strategy for subsidizing somewhat my cruising plans, I was thinking more along the lines of expense sharing, or perhaps crewed chartering.

You are bound by the rules of the country in which your vessel is registered

Are you positive about that? Even if I'm operating on a different country? Don't I have to comply to regulations of that country? In that case, probably best strategy would be to register boat in country with relaxed regulation to go through the licenses quicker?

If the above is not true, i.e., if I do need to comply to individual countries' regulations, then how about an RYA Yachtmaster with commercial endorsement? Looks like it has the widest recognition. Would that suffice?

[Auspicious]

Flag country and country of operation being different can be awkward also. The Bahamas have some requirements that I don't completely understand just for bringing passengers in. In the US the Jones Act applies if you take passengers or cargo from one US port to another US port.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by welljim

Not a ferry or anything like that, just a regular sailboat. I'm trying to work out a strategy for subsidizing somewhat my cruising plans, I was thinking more along the lines of expense sharing, or perhaps crewed chartering.

Sharing expenses among friends is not an issue. Paying passengers are an issue.

It is not that easy. As a sailing instructor I can carry paying customers if they are receiving training. We are going through an extensive set of discussions with Transport Canada right now to set the parameters for Recreational Boating Schools.

Are you positive about that? Even if I'm operating on a different country? Don't I have to comply to regulations of that country? In that case, probably best strategy would be to register boat in country with relaxed regulation to go through the licenses quicker?

Positive. As an example US registered / licensed boats must meet USCG safety regulations. As an example, they can use a horsehoe buoy in Canada, while a Canadian vessel must use a life ring.

If the above is not true, i.e., if I do need to comply to individual countries' regulations, then how about an RYA Yachtmaster with commercial endorsement? Looks like it has the widest recognition. Would that suffice?

RYA is probably the gold standard for recreational boating.

The standard commercial endorsement allows you work on board British flagged vessels subject to the MCA's codes of practice for small commercial vessels.

The commercial endorsement is not recognized for a Canadian registered passenger vessel. You can also get an IYT Master of Yachts ticket that has limited acceptance in red-flagged countries and some others. (IYT World - Government Approvals)

[welljim]

The standard commercial endorsement allows you work on board British flagged vessels subject to the MCA's codes of practice for small commercial vessels. The commercial endorsement is not recognized for a Canadian registered passenger vessel.

how about the STCW commercial endorsement for the RYA Yachtmaster, sounds like it is for operating commercially outside the UK?
Commercial Endorsements | Professional Qualifications | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Hannah on 'Rita T'

In the US, sharing expenses is a paying passenger. In addition to a country's regulations, your biggest concern should be what your insurance company requires.

You're out of date, changed some time ago.

Letter to Latitude 38 by
M. P. Rand
Captain, U.S. Coast Guard
Chief, Office of Investigations and Casualty Analysis
Washington, D.C.

The Coast Guard’s interpretation is that it's completely acceptable for recreational boaters to share the common daily expenses such as gas, food, and other supplies.

Complete letter found here:
Latitude 38 Letters - March 2008

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by cal40john

The Coast Guard’s interpretation is that it's completely acceptable for recreational boaters to share the common daily expenses such as gas, food, and other supplies.

True, but I still think you need to be careful when the "sharing" is not voluntary.

The problem is that the law, and the article quoted above, both clearly say that it must be a "voluntary sharing of the actual expenses." What this letter says makes it sound like a NON-voluntary "sharing" would be okay, so long as it is limited to the actual expenses of that particular trip. So which is right? As it stands there is a contradiction between the letter of the law as it is written, and the way the Coast Guard has decided to interpret it. And, of course, the job of interpreting the law belongs to the judicial branch, not the executive branch (which includes the Coast Guard).

Another question, which the letter above does not answer, is how even does the "sharing" have to be? In particular, does the captain also have to "share" in the costs? Or can the passengers cover the entire cost of the trip, including the captain's share? My guess is that if the captain does not pay an equivalent portion then the Coast Guard is not going to like it, but that is only my guess.

In any case, quite clearly, if you pick an arbitrary number to charge people who sail with you, then you are carrying passengers for hire and would require a license. It would only qualify as "sharing" if you determine the actual costs for the particular trip and use that as your basis for each passenger's "share."

[perchance]

Home trade 3 insurance, an inspected passenger carrying vessel and the appropriate tickets would be my guess.