Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Great questions! Thank you for replying! We are expecting some ridiculous requirements for the first year and may just get really trained up and then hire a skipper to stay with us for a month and especially help us get more experience and confidence with maneuvering in and out of a marina. Possibly if finding insurance rates ridiculous and after being extremely confident after all of that, could go uninsured for a year until we qualify for more reasonable insurance and we have a little cash buffer in case something happens. I'm sensing the insurance business is quite a racket. If we really don't like the boating life then we will just sell the boat, but hopefully, that will not happen. Thanks again and please let us know if you have any more suggestions : ).

A competent sailing instructor / paid skipper should be able to get you up and going in a week, two tops, if you bang at it for at least 8 hrs a day.

Do a full day or two of close quarter maneuver/docking and you'll be a pro. If you only do this 2 times a day, yeah it'll take much longer. Same goes with reefing, MOB, anchoring and the rest. You want a crash course. I took the US Sailing Basic Cruising and we did no less than 18 MOB drills one day (3 students, 6 times each, one of the other students even volunteered to jump over so we could actually practice getting him back on board). FWIW, you can crash course a FAA pilots license in two weeks (you need a min of 40hrs).

Make sure your instructor/skipper knows his engine, electrical, plumbing systems and have them show you how to use/maintain yours.

Then go have fun with your new boat!!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Topspin

You need the license for the size of boat and the flag you intend to sail under.

F.I. in Australia you need the "boat license" which you can do in just one day. For the practical knowledge it would be a good idea to get an ICC (International Certificate of Competence) which can be done in many sailing schools all over the world. Above that you need a license for short distance and maybe also long distance radio operation.

A plain boat license and a radio license are the minimum legal requirements.

Insurances want to know that you are practically fit to handle the boat, they are typically happy if you can show a decent amount of miles sailed or a history of sailing other boats without incidents.



It may be an idea to take out just third party insurance (which is usually easy to get and cheap) for some time and then to upgrade to full comprehensive.....


Regards,



-Richard


P.S.: Learning the ropes from an experienced skipper is one of the best things you can do, it will give you a lot of knowledge and practical experience, but unfortunately no certificate. So do the ICC or a RYA course (also accepted worldwide).

Thank you for taking the time to pass on that wise advice! We liked it all and will act on it. Good practical advice and we really appreciate it!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by carlabunga

Hi,
My husband and I just purchased a 1996 Voyage 430 Norsemen. We have minimal sailing experience but plan on retiring hopefully in the next 2 years if the stock market ever goes back up. We had the same problem finding insurance - I searched all over the United States and finally hooked up with someone who would insure us. It ain't cheap! The Marina wouldn't let us keep it there without the insurance either. We had to give the insurance broker a boating resume. We have been around motorboats all our lives, but not sailboats. I took sailing in college and my husband sailed with is uncle on his 30' sailboat.
I hear what some of the other people are saying, but I say go for it. However, I would caution you with your minimal experience, i would buy in the USA. The insurance company would only insure us up to 120 miles off the coast of the US. Also, if you are US citizens and you plan on bringing it back here, you will have to pay a tax or something like that.

We figure we will get someone to teach us on our own boat and once we do that, we give the paperwork to the insurance company and they up our range. Our boat needs a lot of work - turn 4 bathrooms into two, redo the kitchen and saloon, add a larger freezer, blah blah blah. We figure while we work on it, we will keep it at a marina on the gulf coast and dry dock for some of the repairs. We got a very good deal on it and worst case scenario, if we don't like it or I can't handle it, we can sell it and get back everything we put into it.

The agent is Marty Reichman with Anchor & Marine. He is an awesome guy. The insurance will go down with the more experience we get. Our boat is in Mobile, Al and they require a boat license that can be obtained online for $35. Also, An FCC ship station radio license is no longer required for any vessel traveling in U.S. waters which uses a VHF marine radio, radar or EPIRB, and which is not required to carry radio equipment according to the US Coast Guard.

Wow, great advice while sharing your experience. We loved your practical information as well as the insurance contact. We will act on it all! Sometimes we just have to go for it, not realizing all of the challenges (ignorance is bliss) but then fight to overcome and be all the stronger because of it along with some great stories to tell. Good look on your boat renovation experience and thanks again!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by boatman61

45 answers and a 4th page yet still no response from Blownaway..

Sir, with no disrespect, this was my first ever (compared to your 25,000) and honestly, I needed to read them all in order to give intelligent responses. Not mention I live in China, I work and the thread was only about 12 hours old. How about some patience, a little grace, and saying something helpful instead of just a put-down?

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by CATJAVA

Hi Blown Away, i own a 48ft Crowther cat since 2004. Have never had insurance since a VERY experienced blue-water couple told me that “prudent seamanship” is what you need more than some insurance company telling you where and when you can go or not go. In other words, using your head counts for a lot! I never had to show my USCG Capt’s license (now defunct) or insurance, but I don’t usually do Marinas where u need insurance papers. So can’t help you there.

I’m an experienced blue water sailor. Twice across the Pacific, once in the Southern Ocean with 10m seas and 70kt winds, all behind me! Been on a few reefs (“U haven’t sailed in Fiji if U never went on a reef” as the saying goes). Was crew for a boat crossing the Pacific because he needed a Licensed Capt. for his insurance company.

You’ve got plenty of room aboard to take an experienced person or cruising couple that can “show u the ropes” and probably help you qualify for insurance at the get go and have fun doing it!

I may be going against the grain of what you may be hearing, but you should remember that ocean sailing is a roll of the dice, so if you want a sure thing then don’t buy a boat or restrict your sailing to coastal (protected) waters. There are no guarantees in this life, look at what the Virus has done?

I may be a Black Sheep of the CF Forum, ha ha! Evan, waiting in the Philippines for the LOCKDOWN to end so I hoist sail again!

Wow, Catjava! This is perhaps the best advice we have received and believed it or not another person said something similar also but with as much detail your personal experience. He did mention how much of a racket marine is especially with all of their recent losses and even if you do get a gash or something on your hull, you are probably going to fix it yourself instead of reporting it because of the consequences. Also, there are VERY few total loses and we could recover if that happened. It wouldn't be pretty but we could do it. Between extensive sailing classes and a captain teaching us on our boat, especially getting in and out of a marina, I think we would be knowledgeable and confident to could forego insurance also at least while is crazy high for a newbie. Are you available to teach us?! Our boat may just be in Greece. We will find out tomorrow. Fear is a mindkiller - Elon Musk

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by ccannan

I didn’t imply that liability only insurance was an option, I stated it was an option, and it is, but I didn’t tell the OP to seek it.

Liability insurance and it’s limitations is a known concept beyond the world of yacht insurance. As you correctly noted, liability only insurance is an option,,,,for some people.

Liability only insurance isn’t just for the wealthy, the informative criteria lies relative to the value of the boat versus, hull insurance premiums, and personal wealth. Hull insurance is very, very expensive and full of huge loopholes indemnifying insurance companies if any of countless conditions can’t be met. Whereas, most liability policies don’t contain any similar limitations.

If a vessel value is x, and the owner’s net worth is >4x, and annual hull insurance premiums would be > 0.01x (my number), liability only insurance should be considered. Consider homeowner’s insurance premiums... anything above 0.01x would be untenable. Many will jump in to point out how much more vulnerable a vessel is than a house, but I would counter that the exemptions the yacht insurance industry instituted makes up for any inequalities between the two.

Thanks for the advice Ccannan!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by ccannan

Good, albeit probably unnecessary advice, as no one on CF so far has been “telling” the OP “to only take out liability insurance”. Also, as an adult near retirement it should be presumed that the OP understands the implications of liability insurance.

Good points. We could survive a total loss, but it would not be pretty. We are also going to try and avoid marinas where they would require liability insurance and instead live off the hook as much as possible.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by CATJAVA

Hi Blown Away, i own a 48ft Crowther cat since 2004. Have never had insurance since a VERY experienced blue-water couple told me that “prudent seamanship” is what you need more than some insurance company telling you where and when you can go or not go. In other words, using your head counts for a lot! I never had to show my USCG Capt’s license (now defunct) or insurance, but I don’t usually do Marinas where u need insurance papers. So can’t help you there.

I’m an experienced blue water sailor. Twice across the Pacific, once in the Southern Ocean with 10m seas and 70kt winds, all behind me! Been on a few reefs (“U haven’t sailed in Fiji if U never went on a reef” as the saying goes). Was crew for a boat crossing the Pacific because he needed a Licensed Capt. for his insurance company.

You’ve got plenty of room aboard to take an experienced person or cruising couple that can “show u the ropes” and probably help you qualify for insurance at the get go and have fun doing it!

I may be going against the grain of what you may be hearing, but you should remember that ocean sailing is a roll of the dice, so if you want a sure thing then don’t buy a boat or restrict your sailing to coastal (protected) waters. There are no guarantees in this life, look at what the Virus has done?

I may be a Black Sheep of the CF Forum, ha ha! Evan, waiting in the Philippines for the LOCKDOWN to end so I hoist sail again!

You're not the Black Sheep. You may the smartest one! Where are you heading in the Philippines? We were just at Anilao and Puerto Galera over the Christmas break : )

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

With no experience, and no real knowledge - forgive me - you will come to greatly regret buying this as your first boat. The number of people who fall in love with sailing off into the sunset, around the world - but never do it - is legion to the handful that actually do it.


Consider that your first boat will - in general - be a mistake, as you will quickly learn. Your second boat is the one. My advice - please get out of this deal and plan to take some good lessons from a qualified school, and then charter a few boats. See if you can crew on a challenging delivery or two.


I really don't mean to burst your lovely and romantic bubble. But please, please don't...

Thanks for your reply and advice which we are considering. That is why we posted is to get different perspectives on our situation from experienced sailors. We have not signed the deal yet so it is not too late. Currently, we are fighting with another couple over the boat and they may win and then we can rethink everything. If I had to change one word in your post it is "will", "you will come to greatly regret buying" and I would change it to a "may" because our regret, although possible, it not certain.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by In Training

I am retiring this year with plans to purchase next spring. Took 101, 102 and 103 sailing on 43 ft. monohull and then this year same plus ASA 110 on Catamaran. Soo glad we did. Catamaran pounded for days, sailing was aweful. Doesn't slice thru waves like the monohull and needed to motor sail so engine noise there. Took a lot of the enjoyment away. Took the sailing classes to help with insurance and get some experience. Take away: Will not buy a catamaran, did not enjoy sailing it as much as the monohull. It was worth the week on board and the cost just to save making the mistake of buying one. So, with no experience you might want to spend a few weeks on different boats before purchasing.

Just my thoughts, as it saved us from making a mistake.

Hi In Training! Thank you for your response with opinions! We love the classes you took and we will do the same. How long would all four classes take if you did them back to back? I like monohulls but for my wife, they are a no go. She's a catamaran girl so being thankful to even have a wife that wants to go sailing, I have to concede on the catamaran with her ; ).

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by In Training

I am retiring this year with plans to purchase next spring. Took 101, 102 and 103 sailing on 43 ft. monohull and then this year same plus ASA 110 on Catamaran. Soo glad we did. Catamaran pounded for days, sailing was aweful. Doesn't slice thru waves like the monohull and needed to motor sail so engine noise there. Took a lot of the enjoyment away. Took the sailing classes to help with insurance and get some experience. Take away: Will not buy a catamaran, did not enjoy sailing it as much as the monohull. It was worth the week on board and the cost just to save making the mistake of buying one. So, with no experience you might want to spend a few weeks on different boats before purchasing.

Just my thoughts, as it saved us from making a mistake.

Whoops, forgot. All the best with retirement!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Group9

Usually, I'm in the "just go and figure it out as you go", camp. But, a Lagoon 450 is not the boat to do that in. Go get some real sailing and boat handling lessons somewhere.

Thanks for your advice! We will be living on this boat and want many of the comforts of home and make sure we work with a captain for as long as possible so that we are comfortable.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Don't see a problem with a Lagoon 450 as the first boat. If you start boating in retirement age, the first boat can easily be the last. And plenty of people are happy with a Lagoon.

I agree with boat sailing courses. If the OP couple hasn't sailed before, some lessons on *small* boats are in order. But this could be done while living aboard a cat, why not?

We LOVE your answer! Yes, we want this boat to be home and are hoping this will be the last boat. Definitely we will take all of the right courses with small boats and have a skipper along as long as possible to teach us on our boat, especially getting in and out of a marina. Thanks for taking the time to respond and please keep in touch!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

For US owners, do NOT call Geico/BoatUS for insurance if you have less than 2 years of ownership/experience. It is a no go.

Yes, I did this before I read your post and you are correct sir. Got the BIG no! Thanks for posting!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SV Blown Away

Sir, with no disrespect, this was my first ever (compared to your 25,000) and honestly, I needed to read them all in order to give intelligent responses. Not mention I live in China, I work and the thread was only about 12 hours old. How about some patience, a little grace, and saying something helpful instead of just a put-down?

Oh please, forgive Phil. He is a nice enough guy when you get to know him, even with all his faults.

Reading all your comments and replies I think you do have a pretty good grasp of what's required and the potential risks and liabilities. In Phil's (Boatman) defense I cannot count the number of posts from new boaters that with some version of: have never been on a boat at all, saw a sailing movie (usually Captain Ron), have some very minimal amount of money, want to buy a boat worth many times their budget and leave a month later so sail around the world.

You on the other hand seem to understand the magnitude of the undertaking and have started researching carefully how to develop and execute a plan. Your background as teachers is showing. Also the fact that you could move to a distant and very different country to work indicates you have a sense of adventure and and appreciation of travel and adventure that are, I think, key to enjoying cruising.

All the best of luck but doesn't appear to me that you will need it.