Couple with No Sailing Experience Buying Catamaran and In Need of Insurance Advice

[carlabunga]

Hi,
My husband and I just purchased a 1996 Voyage 430 Norsemen. We have minimal sailing experience but plan on retiring hopefully in the next 2 years if the stock market ever goes back up. We had the same problem finding insurance - I searched all over the United States and finally hooked up with someone who would insure us. It ain't cheap! The Marina wouldn't let us keep it there without the insurance either. We had to give the insurance broker a boating resume. We have been around motorboats all our lives, but not sailboats. I took sailing in college and my husband sailed with is uncle on his 30' sailboat.
I hear what some of the other people are saying, but I say go for it. However, I would caution you with your minimal experience, i would buy in the USA. The insurance company would only insure us up to 120 miles off the coast of the US. Also, if you are US citizens and you plan on bringing it back here, you will have to pay a tax or something like that.

We figure we will get someone to teach us on our own boat and once we do that, we give the paperwork to the insurance company and they up our range. Our boat needs a lot of work - turn 4 bathrooms into two, redo the kitchen and saloon, add a larger freezer, blah blah blah. We figure while we work on it, we will keep it at a marina on the gulf coast and dry dock for some of the repairs. We got a very good deal on it and worst case scenario, if we don't like it or I can't handle it, we can sell it and get back everything we put into it.

The agent is Marty Reichman with Anchor & Marine. He is an awesome guy. The insurance will go down with the more experience we get. Our boat is in Mobile, Al and they require a boat license that can be obtained online for $35. Also, An FCC ship station radio license is no longer required for any vessel traveling in U.S. waters which uses a VHF marine radio, radar or EPIRB, and which is not required to carry radio equipment according to the US Coast Guard.

[boatman61]

45 answers and a 4th page yet still no response from Blownaway..

[CATJAVA]

Hi Blown Away, i own a 48ft Crowther cat since 2004. Have never had insurance since a VERY experienced blue-water couple told me that “prudent seamanship” is what you need more than some insurance company telling you where and when you can go or not go. In other words, using your head counts for a lot! I never had to show my USCG Capt’s license (now defunct) or insurance, but I don’t usually do Marinas where u need insurance papers. So can’t help you there.

I’m an experienced blue water sailor. Twice across the Pacific, once in the Southern Ocean with 10m seas and 70kt winds, all behind me! Been on a few reefs (“U haven’t sailed in Fiji if U never went on a reef” as the saying goes). Was crew for a boat crossing the Pacific because he needed a Licensed Capt. for his insurance company.

You’ve got plenty of room aboard to take an experienced person or cruising couple that can “show u the ropes” and probably help you qualify for insurance at the get go and have fun doing it!

I may be going against the grain of what you may be hearing, but you should remember that ocean sailing is a roll of the dice, so if you want a sure thing then don’t buy a boat or restrict your sailing to coastal (protected) waters. There are no guarantees in this life, look at what the Virus has done?

I may be a Black Sheep of the CF Forum, ha ha! Evan, waiting in the Philippines for the LOCKDOWN to end so I hoist sail again!

[ccannan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Your comment #12 and the prior #11 both implied that liability only is an option.

I didn’t imply that liability only insurance was an option, I stated it was an option, and it is, but I didn’t tell the OP to seek it.

Liability insurance and it’s limitations is a known concept beyond the world of yacht insurance. As you correctly noted, liability only insurance is an option,,,,for some people.

Liability only insurance isn’t just for the wealthy, the informative criteria lies relative to the value of the boat versus, hull insurance premiums, and personal wealth. Hull insurance is very, very expensive and full of huge loopholes indemnifying insurance companies if any of countless conditions can’t be met. Whereas, most liability policies don’t contain any similar limitations.

If a vessel value is x, and the owner’s net worth is >4x, and annual hull insurance premiums would be > 0.01x (my number), liability only insurance should be considered. Consider homeowner’s insurance premiums... anything above 0.01x would be untenable. Many will jump in to point out how much more vulnerable a vessel is than a house, but I would counter that the exemptions the yacht insurance industry instituted makes up for any inequalities between the two.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Congratulations! That - potentially - sounds great!

What's your nationality? Which flag do you intend to sail under? These answers will influence what certificate you need. Regarding insurance I don't know, but why not just call some (e.g. Pantaenius) and explain your situation. Maybe it works with some limitations, e.g. not leaving the marina while not having a certificate?

Thank you for being our first reply ever! We really appreciate it! We are US citizens currently living in China finishing up our school year on June 29th. We have heard of Pantaenius and a few others and have contacted them and are waiting to hear from them. One of them is the broker Offshore Risk Management and said one of their underwriters is considering insuring us with the stipulation that we get our ICC and also hire a captain for few weeks for experience and to sign off on our competency which sounds like a good solution to us assuming that they are not going to charge us 5% of the insured value.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

SV Blown Away, I actually clicked of your post but you know curiosity killed the cat. Have you never sailed at all? That is a beast of a first boat to buy and go sailing on. A 26 foot beam takes some getting used to in tight spaces even for experienced sailors.
Have you tried a company called Northern Reef, they have a name for insuring anything that floats here in Australia. I think they are an offshore company that have a bad name for paying out.
Who ever insures you for the first year will probably charge a fortune and once you have some experience then you should easily be able to change insurers.......maybe.
The other way is to get some experience first then buy the cat. By the time you get the experience you may realise you do not need an apartment block just for the two of you?
Not knocking the Lagoon, I surveyed a 450F and it felt pretty big on the water.
Cheers

Thank you so much for your reply! (OK, please try not to laugh ; ). Here's my experience which is better than nothing. I used to be for hire when I was 15 years old in front of the Hyatt in Hilton Head, South Carolina where they had sailboats to rent and guests that did not know how to sail, would pay me $20 to take them out which was a lot of money back in 1978! That was way before companies were concerned about liability and more people were still smoking nonfiltered cigarettes and driving without seat belts ; ). I also crewed a 40 foot Beneteau in the Chesapeake Bay for a week at a time for two summers and loved it but that was about twenty years ago. Just recently, we rode on a sailboat with a friend in Qingdao, China where the sailing competition took place for the Beijing, 2008 Olympics. Also, my wife's brother has a Corsair trimaran which we have been on several times.

We have also been following many YouTubers on their circumnavigation adventure which we have learned from and have encouraged us to follow in their footsteps and many have started out similar to where we are.

Because we are looking at this as home and know we will want to have family and friends visiting, we are picking the larger boat and you are right, it is a gamble.

Thanks again for helping us out and we hope you meet you on the water some day!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

You may want to actually contact one or more the insurance companies and ask what you need to do to become qualified. When I was an active delivery captain, I had a two people hire me to teach them close-quarter maneuvering for insurance sign-off purposes (different insurance companies). I worked with their underwriter to develop a program, though I seem to recall they both had contact-time requirements of several (six? I really don't remember) lessons over several weeks. You are not the first to buy a relatively large boat right out of the gate.

Good luck, and welcome to CF. It's been a good resource for me.

Peter

That is an awesome "can do" reply and we really appreciate the encouragement coupled with the practical solution! Your idea which is tried and proven is now currently at the top of our list. Thanks again!

[keithw88]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It is with some hesitation that I have decided to post this here, but I think the timing is very poor for someone to try buying a boat outside their own area. Period. It is because the coronavirus pandemic is still ramping up in many places in the world. Realistically, I think travel restrictions will be in place for 1 to 3 years--and then there will be a new normal. So that's the first reason the timing is wrong.

The second one is that while it is theoretically possible to follow your plan, as others here have pointed out, there are also many possible failure modes, including one or both of you catching and dying of the virus. You can learn the basics of sailing in a short while, but learning to sail well is a different kettle of fish. You need to understand ship to shore radio practice; you will have to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of Colregs; boats are different to drive (as in docking, undocking, maintaining a straight course) because they are affected by wind (and that Lagoon has a huge lot of windage) and the tidal flows of the water. It is not like buying a car or SUV and driving somewhere on the highway. Without sea time, you do not have a clue how it will affect you. Some people (a minority) get sea sick and don't ever get over it. Being seasick will test your perseverance, and it happens to all of us some time or other. It took me about 10 years to find something that helps me with it.

Never having lived with a boat, you really have no idea how much time you will spend maintaining it. And, if you do not have the skills to tackle the jobs yourselves, you will spend mega bucks waiting on others to do the job, you can get stuck in countries because hurricane season has begun and you can't leave, and the boat's still not right.

But for now, please understand, many places are simply closed to people not of their own nation. You won't be going anywhere.

**********

The advice you received early on, to move near the water, rent a tiny studio apartment, get involved with a club that gives classes and has a variety of boats to sail would be a far more conservative way of approaching what you want to do. Your problem is exactly what you said, you are realizing what you don't know. A year or two spent now, learning the ropes, sailing on other people's boats helping them out at haulout time (as volunteer race crew, 'cause that's how you'll learn about sail trim), each of you on different OPBs, so you learn separately and combine your knowledge later. After 2 years, you will have very different ideas about what you want to sail on, and how you want to sail her, including how much is too much bottom for the two of you to sand, for the next few years.

Your present plan is very high risk, both fiinancially, and physically. The ocean is not as user friendly as land, for humans: we can drown easily. We cannot always avoid bad weather, and we have to help the boat survive bad weather so that we do, too. I think you would be wise to back out of this sale, and get out on the water, get your training, learn the homework stuff you can learn ahead of time. I realize you are feeling the pressure of advancing years, but truly, it will be time well spent.

In the mean time, you might start a thread here about buying boats out of charter, enquire about costs to bring such boats back up to snuff. A day charter will allow you to experience how a brand name boat sails. Your racing experience will teach you to appreciate sailing close to the wind, sailing and tacking angles, and a little about sailing in vigorous weather, if you've picked a good place to learn. You'll pick the timing and location for certifications. Heed the warning above, I believe I've heard about Greece requiring them for sailing, too.

Apologies if reading this has discouraged you, but I hope it doesn't. I hope it encourages you to approach your goals with wide open eyes, not hiding from uncomfortable realities.

Ann

I also hesitated for some time before responding to this thread. I was delighted and relieved to read Ann's post, and totally support her points. Ann has some serious experience, but more importantly she hits some really important points.
I really would not want to poor derision on someone wanting to take a great adventure, but this situation could end in disaster. Additionally to Ann's points, I do not understand the rationale for signing a document which might provide for some financial penalties before getting some advice from a trustworthy and experienced boat owner. Who is the owner and is its ownership legally established, free of lien? Is the person 'selling' the vessel authorised to do so? Where will a deposit be held and under what legal basis? There are several other questions like this.
I do hope the OP reads all these responses and steps back from this purchase at this point. If the couple have been teachers until their retirement, it would be tragic if at the point of their retirement they have their dream destroyed by their naivety and maybe the greed of people eager to profit from more innocent souls.

[SV Blown Away]

That's a really good practical solution! One we have been looking for. We are responsible and also persistent and are not going to let anything get in the way of this dream!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Call around is all you can really do and explain your situation. Expect to pay a heck of a lot for the first year or two. Also don't be surprised if they add crazy rules like having a licensed captain aboard if the boat leaves the slip.

So you have no boating experience at all? Not even a small runabout? What's your exit strategy if you decide you don't like cruising? Do you have a large maintenance budget (at least for the first couple year) as you aren't familiar with boat maintenance? Did you include a formal survey as part of the offer?

Lots of red flags.

Great questions! Thank you for replying! We are expecting some ridiculous requirements for the first year and may just get really trained up and then hire a skipper to stay with us for a month and especially help us get more experience and confidence with maneuvering in and out of a marina. Possibly if finding insurance rates ridiculous and after being extremely confident after all of that, could go uninsured for a year until we qualify for more reasonable insurance and we have a little cash buffer in case something happens. I'm sensing the insurance business is quite a racket. If we really don't like the boating life then we will just sell the boat, but hopefully, that will not happen. Thanks again and please let us know if you have any more suggestions : ).

[SV Blown Away]

Point well made on the maintenance. We are also looking forward to doing as much maintenance as possible and hopefully nothing too major since this boat is a 2014. We are going to learn a lot of new things which will be part of the fun.

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Are you British? If so join the RYA. Do at least the coastal skippers course, usually includes 5 days on a monohull, yechh!, you will learn a lot though and you will get a certificate that will pass most jurisdictions that require it in Europe and may assist with insurance.

That is GREAT advice! Thank you and we will definitely do that. We are US citizens but have been working at a British school in China for the past four years teaching students how to spell the correct way . . . hahahaha ; )! We want to be as safe, confident and knowledgeable as possible along with a good amount of practice. Thanks again!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by StuM

Northern Reef have gone bust leaving a lot of people without cover!

Thanks for the heads up!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by edmundsteele

My wife and I were in the same position in 2002 when we wanted to go sailing. I had briefly owned a dinghy with a single small sail some 35 years earlier but otherwise we had no other sailing experience and never even been aboard an ocean going sailboat. We took a one week course certified by the American Sailing Association (ASA) through a company in the Grenadine Islands. The certifications qualified and enabled us to “bare boat charter” a 38 foot sloop for a week from the same company. (Since they had already “certified” us, they were in a weaker position to deny renting the boat to us!). I had read somewhere that marine insurance companies are very concerned about your ability to navigate - thus in 2003 we took a second one week ASA course on “coastal navigation” out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. We then purchased a 53 foot ketch and were successful in buying an insurance policy before setting off around the world on a 6 year circumnavigation.
Good Luck and Fair Winds,
Ed

This is what we think it the best advice so far and probably the tack we will take. Thank you for your encouragement as well as the practical advice that worked for you. We LOVE it and appreciate you taking the time to post!

[SV Blown Away]

Originally Posted by keithw88

I also hesitated for some time before responding to this thread. I was delighted and relieved to read Ann's post, and totally support her points. Ann has some serious experience, but more importantly she hits some really important points.
I really would not want to poor derision on someone wanting to take a great adventure, but this situation could end in disaster. Additionally to Ann's points, I do not understand the rationale for signing a document which might provide for some financial penalties before getting some advice from a trustworthy and experienced boat owner. Who is the owner and is its ownership legally established, free of lien? Is the person 'selling' the vessel authorised to do so? Where will a deposit be held and under what legal basis? There are several other questions like this.
I do hope the OP reads all these responses and steps back from this purchase at this point. If the couple have been teachers until their retirement, it would be tragic if at the point of their retirement they have their dream destroyed by their naivety and maybe the greed of people eager to profit from more innocent souls.

This is why we posted for the first time to Cruisers Forum is for good advice like yours. We REALLY appreciate the time and thought that you have taken with your reply and we have really read it closely and thought about it. We have not signed the contract yet and if we do, we will definitely consult a lawyer. Yes, we are crazy excited and have probably put the cart before the horse and may need to reevaluate based on yours and Anne's wise advice. Thanks again!